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Hey all, just wanted to put up my new favorite tourney list to show that WoC don't necessarily need armour to be effective, and to get some feedback/ideas on how to maybe tweak it.
Chaos Steed, Shield, Sword of Change, Collar of Khorne, Favour of the Gods, Mark of
Great Weapon, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the Gods
5, Flails, Mark of Khorne
5, Flails, Mark of Khorne
12, Flails, Mark of Khorne
12, Flails, Mark of Khorne
48, Chieftan, Standard Bearer
12, Champion, Standard Bearer, Halberds, Extra Hand Weapons, Shields, Banner of
5, Standard Bearer, Blasted Standard, Mark of Tzeentch
Mark of Tzeentch
130+ wounds is a lot to chew through lol. Lord goes with the knights of course, BSB in with the big marauder unit. So far this list has seen a large handful of friendly competitive games and two three-round tournaments. It's beaten casting VCs and drawn (a very narrow draw) against daemons. High elves aren't a problem, probably because I'm a HE player myself, and likewise for reasonable DE.
The armies I have had some trouble with have been Wood Elves due mostly to their maneuverability and fast cav, and lizardmen because of cold blooded. I haven't yet faced Empire or Dwarves (rare in this area) or a hardcore, cheeseball Daemons list. Tomb Kings are also rare except at tournaments, where they usually do well. I have actually NEVER played a game against tomb kings in all the time I've played Warhammer. Any thoughts and ideas are appreciated, and I can just say that so far in my experience the enemy magic phase has been negligible. My lord is protected well enough and only sniping spells are going to get through to the BSB. If anything, the corpse cart bound spell has been the worst thing to deal with.
How are u surviving magic? A lot of armies run heavy magic in tournies. How are you not getting ripped apart by it?
In my experience, if you take those points you would have in magic and replace them with more infantry, you've more wisely invested those points. And that's coming from a HE player!
In a list like this, offensive magic is mostly laughable. The knights are protected well enough from the scary magic missiles (lightning, spirit of the forge) with their MR and ward saves, and everything else doesn't matter. If you fireball one of the small marauder units, you can expect to kill maybe 2-3 guys, but they're frenzied and are going to make it to you no matter what. If you kill the dogs then you've killed 36 whopping points and spent time NOT killing things that would actually hurt you. I wouldn't think anyone playing at a tourney would waste their time trying to magic missile the massive marauder unit (though it would be nice if they did.) Really, the only troops on the field I would worry about are the marauder horsemen because they are so useful but also really unprotected.
The only magic that need be worried about is utility stuff, like the beast cowers, steed of shadows, things like that. It took me a while to get used to playing without magic, and I still love my Tzeentch and Nurgle 12 PD list, but really you just have to be realistic about the effectiveness of magic. Offensive magic used against a small, elite army (HE, DE, WE, armoured WoC) can be effective, but who the hell ever won a game against Orcs and Goblins or skaven with magic? Maybe some lucky casting can carry aspects of a game for you, but playing with and against horde armies you can exponentially increase your chances of winning just by having more models than the other guy, and moving them around the board in a way that makes sense. Also, a fair amount of magic can't be used in combat, and most of the enemy's units are in combat by turns 2 or 3.
Just different outlook on magic, I suppose. When playing my HE, getting flames of the Phoenix is awesome, but I would gladly trade Fury of Khaine for Courage of Aenarion or Shield of Saphery. In my Nurgle list, having Magnificent Buboes as a default spell is one of the nastiest things about WoC magic, but Rot, Glorious Rot isn't nearly as useful as Fleshy Abundance. A lot of the opponents I face can't wait to cast some sort of magic missile so they can kill off 3 marauders and feel like they are doing something worthwhile, but they don't think to buff their army and wonder why they lost.
I strongly disagree with your strategy there. Not all magic is a D6 Str 4 magic missile. And even that is enough to make short work of your Marauder horsemen.
Any enemy with a strong magic phase is going to cast on you without any resistance really. A solid HE magic phase would destroy this army. Idk how you think it wouldnt. And a 6+ ward save is not going to save your knights from tough spells. There are a number of spells that can hurt them. And honestly that is the only real scary unit your army has other than the warriors. If your enemy takes down that unit your done imo.
Also I personally dont like marauders but I really dont think they are going to do much of anything in this list. The small units of 12 arent big enough to survive, and dont hit hard enough to win any combat. The big unit of 48 is not going to do much at all. There flank is massive and having no upgrades these guys are going to die to anything.
Plus WoC have no real shooting. Taking magic is our only real shot at having any decent ranged phase.
Oh and magic usually wont win a game in itself. Against horde armies it can do a lot of things to help. Plus if you are trying to be good in tournies, I think you want something thats useful against those smaller elite armies. DE, HE, WoC, Demons are all tough. Not to be rude to any OnG players, but if a WoC player really needs a lot of help to beat them, something is wrong.
Last edited by sdefreit; June 25th, 2009 at 17:23.
Agree to disagree I suppose. Everyone's style is different, and I have yet to allow an enemy to use his magic phase in a game changing way. I've used this list in two 3-round tournaments and have gone 4-1-1 with it; the draw was against daemons. I also have a winning record out of a handful of competitive but friendly games. In my opinion the marauder unit is the most effective one in the list, and the size of it's flank is negligible since there are probably bigger things to worry about if an enemy is even close to being able to charge it in the side or rear; I would have really screwed up in that case.
Seriously though, I agree as long as that is what it refers to, though some helpful criticism would be better suited here.
I think your logic may have worked in a Warhammer time ago, but sadly in today's scene, two dispel dice, and one MR(2) isn't going to cut the mustard.
Any magic heavy list is easily going to immobilize/destroy your few threatening units, before piece-mealing the rest.
The huge block is WAY too large and cumbersome, and you don't have enough damage output to justify trying to use it as a holding line. Might also want to mark it Slaanesh so as to not lose it to a silly failed check.
The Warshrine seems really out of place to me in the list as well, and I would mark it Slaanesh as well.
I think if you are trying to forgo magic entirely you need to at least get another character with the other MR(2) on him, not that I encourage this approach, just that if it is to work, you REALLY need to get some more MR at the least.
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Lore of metal will crush your knights and nullify your hellcannon.
High magic undoing spell and Metal spell will make your BotG go poof.
Lore of fire will completely destory your marauders. Wall of fire on that big naked marauder unit will make almost the whole thing go poof.
There are so many spells out there to destoy a defensless list. These are only a fe wexamples I have off the top of my head. I honestly dont know how your running that record with this list. Its hard to imagine people arent taking advantage of that magic phase. Im really questioning the competition level because this just seems to odd to me.
The knights can throw 4 Dispel Dice at any one spell thrown at them, and 2 against anything. Sure, spirit of the forge may go off, but then again maybe it won't. Or, maybe they'll play an army incapable of taking Lore of Metal. I'm unsure what the Lore of Metal can do to the Hellcannon, other than try wounding it on 6's with no armour save, and distributed randomly among it and the crew.
I gotta say guys, I wasn't really expecting all this hate on having a no magic army lol! It has really worked so far, I promise, and not just against morons either but seasoned players who generally do well in our local tourneys. In the games I've played, people have either ignored the large block all together or focused fire on it. If things really start to get hinky the BSB jumps ship and joins the warriors. If they ignore it, fine, that's 5 static CR running up the board ready to tip the scales on any combat, stubborn no less.
Against skaven, sure the knights might be in trouble, but they are always, I repeat, always in combat by turn two. If I deploy like I've ever played a game of Warhammer before then they won't get casted on in turn 1, and turn two is the enemy's big opportunity to cast on them. The Blasted Standard has worked well during the shooting phases, too, and I've never gotten less than 4 knights into combat.
The marauder horsemen hide until they can reliably get a flank charge, period. I'll waste their points for five turns if I have to, they can make it up to me by getting me just one overrun.
Losing the BSB would be really bad, but it hasn't happened yet outside of combat, and then only once against HE and once against Lizards very late in the game. Every unit in combat, outside of dogs or horsemen, are stubborn. Combine that with WoC general tendency to be completely awesome, and you've got a winning combination. No I don't run them in against Temple Guard or White Lions, of course not.
I have a HE army. I'm pretty good at winning with it, too, if I do say so myself. So much so that in our local group I was starting to scrounge for games and it was getting old, so I switched to WoC for something new. Horde armies are always what gave me trouble, and by playing HE I had gotten used to using one or two outstanding units to win the game. So I carried that philosophy over to WoC, using knights and warriors and horsemen as my go-to units, with lots of CHEAP wounds to screen them with, bait the enemy, and take off ranks. Those units of twelve marauders are shooting units. They take off some rank bonused, cause some harassment, and then die and give my opponent 180 points for all his trouble. The dogs either get creamed by missile fire or run off the table in panic; once in a while they score me a table quarter. Another 120 points for my opponent, but now his units are either spread out and off kilter, or angled correctly for a flank charge, or my combat units have safely advanced into charge range with minimal damage to themselves.
All it takes is one good setup, the knights or the warriors in a combat with a unit of horsemen hanging on the side, and you can sweep across the entire board, combat after combat. The best I've done is two entire enemy units wiped out with a third running in the same combat phase. People targeting the marauders with flails is actually an integral part of the strategy, since once the make it through once combat they will hopefully have less unit strength than the horsemen, the enemy unit will flee horizontally, hopefully bringing my units into another combat that has yet to happen. Wash rinse, and repeat. With this many models board control is easy, and you can generally get the opponent to do what you want him to. Wood elves have been a problem, and of course its very rare to sweep undead or daemons, but that's what static CR is for.
I dunno, it works for me, not all the time but certainly more often then my Sorceror Lord list, and I guess that's all I can say about it. Play smart, take the time to line up the combats you want and avoid the ones you don't, and screen your important units as often as possible with terrain or dogs or whatever. Yeah flames of the phoenix is gross but what are the chances that A) I'll face a HE player in a 3-rounder, that he'll have a mage taking High Magic roll spell 5, C) that the mage will get positioned to be able to get in range of the big unit, since I have so many models that I'll invariably be placing them after his heros are on the table, and D) that if he does get in range he'll get it off. Yeah it'll happen but it's not something to even consider when building an army list IMO.
I guess when I was looking for feedback I was expecting some talk over the lack of magic, but I was thinking comments would be more along the lines of dropping units to take ogres, or putting spawn in for flank control, things like that. Comments about how ridiculous my army is versus magic are as welcome as anything else I suppose, but all I can say in advance is that I'm not concerned about it yet, since it hasn't been anything more than an inconvenience.
Yeah Vau's Unmaking would get rid of the banner, but no one hardly ever uses that spell even if they do roll it, they're usually busy spending their dice on other things. Law of Gold is a concern because of its lower casting cost, but many armies can't take Lore of Metal and even then it only destroys the item 50% of the time.
I don't see what the Lore of Fire will do, fireball MAY kill three marauders per casting, at best, the small units are frenzied and the big unit can re-roll LD 8 against Burning Head. Fiery Blast is better than fireball, if it goes off, but still not anything to worry about. Worst case scenario is I lose twelve marauders per casting to it, and it would take 21 casualties before the unit loses any effectiveness. What hasn't been taking damage while 21 marauders have died? If they cast Wall of Fire, I just won't move. They may get lucky and combo it with breaking my unit, but the chance that they would have gotten run down anyway is more likely to wipe out the unit than them moving and taking damage.
I can only speculate as to the competition level, as we only play out of town in a tri-state area, but all of us that play have at least two armies, and many of the guys (and gals) have been playing since second or third edition. Maybe even first, for all I know, we've got some veterans there. We play every Saturday, and generally everyone gets two to four games in, and some people play on Sunday and weeknights as well. I would say we are all well versed in how to play the game, unit movement, anticipating the enemy, etc. Our "core" group usually wins or gets a top three at the local tourneys, and when we travel one of us comes back with something.
The worst thing about not having dispel dice is not stopping Invocation, or the corpse cart bound spell, or tree singing, stuff like that. Damage to my own units hasn't really been a huge problem, and most of that stuff is annoying more than anything else.
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