2250 List vs DE

[Astynax]

well, i can get ya a free 50 points back on your list.... your exalted hero wit the bsb, it clearly states in the codex that if you pay for him to be a bsb, he cannot carry any other magical items(i.e. chaos runeshield) all he can have is a banner of any cost.

Not quite right. You CAN take a BSB with magic items as long as the banner is not upgraded to a magic one. The restriction is that if you take a magic banner you cant take any magic items, not if you take a BSB you cant take magic items. A normal BSB is allowed.

As a former DE player (which I traded for WoC ) his list has one MAJOR flaw in addition to not having enough core choices. The ring of hotek on his level 4 is crippling to himself as well - let him know once he rolls his first doubles during casting that the ring affects both friendly and enemy casters - which is why you never take the ring on a caster or in a unit with a caster. He's risking his own sorceresses to major miscasts especially with the druchii sorcery rule.

Playing vs DE is like playing against VC. You can't go magic heavy and expect to do well. You'd be much better off stacking knights, heroes and lords in there especially since DE have low armor, low T and low-ish Ld. You should be able to break them in 1 charge fairly reliably.

Ditch the level 4, make the 2 sorcerors scroll caddies and with the book of secrets - take lore of shadow. Take lore of shadows for the sorcs as well and ensure the book and both sorcs have steed of shadows. Your lord & other heroes will be on foot geared to hit like a truck and catapulted into the hydra, bolt throwers, sorceresses and death hag with the steed of shadows. Since the ring only affects casters within 12" or if your target is within 12", you can safely cast outside of this range and fly 20" in. With shadows you may get pit of shades too which will take out the hydra VERY reliably

Highly recommended hero builds are:
MoK + great weapon + Helm of many eyes + Bronze armor. Even if he goes stupid he can make combat with steed of shadows. ASF is needed vs the Hags I8 if it goes to later turns, though she likely wont survive more than 1 turn, 2 at most unless he gets lucky ward saves. He'll be god mode vs the hags since they rely only on poisons & KB to be effective, and when youre immune to both they have very little killing power. This guy will also 1 shot the bolt throwers & any chariots you may see at S7 +ASF.

Glaive of putrefaction + Blasphemous Ammy + AHW + MoK would be your backup vs the hydra if pit of shades is not rolled. You have 83% chance to wound the hydra and after turn 1, the monster is as good as dead = EotG roll. The amulet will take care of the handlers.

[kyuzo]

That is some pretty terrible advice right there. My magic heavy army always beats my friends magic heavy seeing as how we are tailored to do so. Pandemonium > all.

Recommending a MoK hero or lord against an army with the best baiters in the game?

[Astynax]

Sure beats going magic heavy and casting into the ring.

So tell me, how does your pandemonium > all and explain how DE are the best baiters in the game. Think before you talk rather than saying I do this against this one person therefore I am always right and look like a tool.

Its not just heavy magic vs heavy magic here, its an attempt at heavy magic vs the best magic defense in the game and if you think you win by pushing even more magic you're dead wrong.

[kyuzo]

Buboes completely dominates ring of hotek users. DE have the best baiters in the game because of HARPIES. Not only that, but dark riders are amazing too.

Have you really played DE before?

[Astynax]

Except you have 1 in 6 to miscast if you use 2 die for buboes and even if that goes through ANY respectable DE player will dispel that with 3DD or scroll it to save their ring. They dont need to save their DD for other spells if the ring is there so priority #1 is to save the bearer.

Whats nasty about DE is that their magic defense they use DD for low cast spells specifically like buboes while the ring will reliably stop all other 3+ PD cast spells. It's almost 45% to miscast on 3 PD. That does not mean 55% chance to spell gets through since half of that means it also may not cast. Thats better odds of dispelling than using DD, so why not save them for low cast spells?

Remember that miscasts take precedence over irresistable force so even 2 sixes = miscast so you'll never get a buboes off that cannot be dispelled. Add 2 scrolls in there and you won't have very much magic go through - especially ones you want to rely on.

Harpies & riders are used to harass flanks & WMs. They arent going to tie up heroes for long or if at all. I'd rather face that risk than miscasting and not having strong combat heroes.

Yes I did actually play DE and the weakness I had the most was around Ld, with breaking when losing combat, and failing due to fear/terror. The best bet of doing that is to try hit their lines, break them and overrun. I can guarantee that you will not outcast DE though, especially with the black staff & sacrificial dagger. You'd be much better off getting everything stuck in combat so they will not be able to cast and and also prevent shooting

[kyuzo]

3DD and 2 scrolls is only going to save him the first 2 turns if you are running only 2 lvl 2s and even if you miscast you can STILL kill the ring with infernal puppet changing your roll to a 12(roll a 9 up and you have a chance to kill) which I have done on the very first turn against one which was quite amusing.

Harpies being used to flank? :/ They can definitely be used to force a charge from a frenzy and FLEE to drag them across the board.

DE magic isnt all that scary against our T4 high armor save army. Any miscast from the DE can easily cause a loss to him.

[Astynax]

Hey did you know that every magic phase you get all your DD back though? Yup, even the ones you rolled last turn. So you're saying that after turn 2, assuming this DE has used both scrolls when he could have used DD or some other minor spell, assuming no miscasts and that the buboes goes off everytime that with 5-6+a DD its not possible to stop a pair of 5+ casts a turn? Get real.

Its 3 DD per buboes cast, not in total. DE goes magic heavy or very little at all and if they're relying on the ring for their magic D when the army takes few casters you can guarantee he'll be screened and well protected - not out in the open in the front for you to openly buboes.

With a low magic DE they can just have 2-3 null talismans on a BSB master + Greatweapon with ASF BG and throw the ring on the tower master. Magic proof & nearly impossible to break. It's what I ran for a cheap & killy ring bunker which costs less than 20% of the army.

Furthermore, half of the dark lore doesnt require LoS whereas you do. The most damaging ones don't need LoS AND ignore armor, also which even level 1 or 2s can get them off with ease due to Druchii sorcery. I don't think you're quite safe to say DE magic isnt that scary

[kyuzo]

Not sure where you are pulling up these random numbers of a DE army having 6DD and the ring of hotek. Not ring of hotek army is going to have more than 3DD total. Good luck trying to screen him when we have so many bound magic spells and the ability to cast the best magic missile in the game on 1 dice 66% of the time.