Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
So I am new to competitive play and will be participating in a few events over the next few months. This is the list I came up with and just wanted to know thoughts and suggestions. Love WoC and hope to place at my first event in a few months.
Sorcerer Lord 305pts
Exalted Hero 180pts
Exalted Hero 180pts
Axe of Khorne
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Warriors 272pts
Musician and Standard
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Warriors 254pts
Chaos Marauders 138pts
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Marauders 134pts
Chaos Warhounds 30pts
Chaos Warhounds 30pts
Marauder Horsemen 87pts
Favor of the Gods
Chaos Warshrine 150pts
Mark of Tzeentch
Anyway the basic plan is to use the Chosen to smash the toughest unit opposite of us. I have already been asked about the 19 man marauder unit, so to simplify I am basically using them as a human shield for the Exalted Hero with Axe of Khorne to take out Generals and other heroes. The hounds and horsemen for war machine hunting and supporting other units with flank charges. Both heroes are being used to take out other heroes and the lord to throw as much magic as possible in my turn.
Last edited by Stormson; August 23rd, 2011 at 15:24.
Before going further, due to copyright restrictions you can't post the individual component costs of upgrades for each unit - you can only post the final tally of what the unit costs. For instance, in the case of your sorcerer lord you may only list the 305 point final cost, not the cost of the level 4 upgrade or the Infernal Puppet.
Why the aversion to musicians? They don't offer much in the way of tangible benefits, but at half the cost of a standard, they act as essentially have a standard by allowing you to win ties against foes who don't have a musician. That alone is +0.5 combat res. They also give +1 to rally rolls and let you take a Ld test to move after a reform. The rally bonus could be really useful to your horsemen, allowing you to flee charges from dangerous units more freely, and the possibility of rolling a free reform, and the tiebreaker, are both very useful to infantry. Add in that your foe doesn't get VP for killing them, and I would suggest considering them in your first marauder unit, the chosen, and your horsemen.
That block of chosen is deadly indeed, but they would benefit from a little more defense. Giving them the mark of tzeentch would cost little more than a single model, but likely save you more than that in shooting casualties alone. I would also consider buying them shields just for shooting - boost their armour by 1 against shooting, and it even gives you another option for CC if you find your chosen fighting a foe with low toughness and armour. Just a few more points to protect your already heavy investment in that death star.
I like the style of the army - a massive horde of ferocious infantry backed by deadly heroes, you can munch through just about anything given enough time, and with a potent sorcerer with access to quality lores (shadow and heaven) to control the field. Just a few more musicians to help out your units, and maybe a little more protection for that huge unit when it inevitably draws tides of small arms fire.
I haven't really suggested any reductions to pay for my suggestions, I'm not sure what I'd take out.
I think you have the basic idea down but your finer details are lacking some sense:
Warriors with shields should be given the mark of tzeech. Why pay the points for the shield and get a 6+ wardsave when it could just as easily be 5+?
I would avoid nurgal for a tourney list, as it only grants bonuses in spesific situations, which may never come to rise in a tournament setting.
Full command is useless in our army, as champions serve no purpose but to pay extra pts for 1 more attack: the rules for our heros make them compelled to issue and accept challenges. While the same rule will apply to champions I don't think they can issue challenges (only accept them), and thus will rarely find themselves in one. Also, i see a standard in the marader horsemen, which I would predict as a free 25 vp's you are giving away.
Marader horsemen will not live the day, and its rare they will even get into combat. I would rather see 2 units of dogs for the same price. More dogs = more drops = you dictate which units face up against which during deployment.
Units of 14 for warriors is a little small, but with the fat unit of chosen it might work.
Your gear on the chosen is just crazy! you get I6 with chosen and you sacrifice that awesome stat with the GW. razor std isn't so hot either, at that str you will rarely get armour in the way. Take either the blasted standard (to protect your 500+pts eggbasket), or the terrorbanner for the stupid amount of re-rolls for the EOTG table.
also, might want to list your lore for your mage, i'm thinking shadows.
Champions can issue challenges, but you're right in that they are often a waste of points. There are some purposes for them however: You can make your champion issue a challenge instead of a sorcerer, say, giving your hero at least a round of protection from character hunters. Also, a Champion in a unit of chosen is allowed to take a magic item, and with the Favour of the Gods available that's usually a worthy investment. I would agree that a standard is out of place in a unit of horsemen as they will never win combat, with or without it.
I think marauder horsemen have uses that dogs don't match. They're far more mobile and their equipment options can make them good flankers supporting a stronger unit, or hunting war machines. They are far more costly than dogs though, and so must be used effectively. They are vulnerable to shooting, but at the very least any shot fired at horsemen is a shot not fired at warriors/chosen, which is nice. Warhounds will never draw fire away from your troops. Horsemen are also at risk of panicking after slight shooting casualties, so Mark of Slaanesh is a nice boost for them there.
The Chosen gear is a little different, they're I5 but yeah unless you see them consistently going against heavy cavalry you don't need that kind of armour denial. I prefer Halberds on Chosen (and the large axes on the current models easily pass for halberds if you make that clear to your opponent). The wailing banner, especially with Favour of the Gods, is very effective on Chosen, and since it's a tournament you should be worried about the borderline cheesiness of such a strategy. If you're not familiar with it, having the terror banner and FotG, combined with Chosen re-rolling Stupidity or Eye is Closed, means you can re-roll any result of 2, 7, 10, or 11. Furthermore, you can use FotG to modify a natural 3, 6, 8, or 9 to turn it into one of those re-rolls. Basically, on a 4, you have to take +T, S, or A. On a 5, you have to take +S, A, or Sv. On an 11 or 12, you get 4++ and Stubborn. It's even more effective with a Warshrine but essentially you get a 1/3 chance of the best result on EotG for your Chosen, and the other 2/3 you still get +1 to one of those 4 stats. Oh and you cause Terror.
Didn't see that. Fair enough, though the benefits of carrying a shield to protect from ranged attacks still stand.
Alright so i had the opportunity to play a game today and decided to test the list. My opponent was Empire and I ended up taking lore of heavens (Which was not bad but ended up being a mistake.) I realized early on you are both right in most points. The standards were a bad idea, in fact they lost me the victory points I needed to draw. I am replacing them with musicians. The Chosen needed more protection as after the luckiest round of shooting I had ever seen he managed to take out no less than eight before they got into combat with some greatswords who fled in round one. I think the suggestion for mark of tzeentch and a different standard will work nicely I am going to try it out. My rolls on Eye of the gods were four and ten so that went well with the shine following close behind. My hounds shot up my Marauder Horsemen lost a fight to some outriders banner was captured. My heroes did fantastic managing to take out no less than three heroes but my Lord ended up in a fight he couldnt win against a very nasty Empire General in a horde of spearmen. All and all some musicians, less standards and a few more ward saves and I may have pulled it out but the Chosen did the job and the army takes hits like champs. So I will rework the list tonight(for me at least) and post the changes in the morning.
You have all of the models in place for a good list, and you have enough points tied up in useless gear that if you reorganized the models you'd have points to patch some other holes.
We'll start with the good things:
-- Units of 14-18 Warriors - you want either a 3x5 formation (-1 if you're including a Character) or a 3x6. Some people will argue for a 4th rank, but at that point, you've just got 2 extra ranks of Warriors sitting around sharpening their swords and trying to look menacing, when they could be in another unit doing something productive.
-- I count 39 Marauders total. Swap those Shields and Flails for GreatWeapons, ditch the commands and switch MoN for MoK, and you have yourself a pretty good unit for messing up the enemy. 40 Marauders with GWs and MoK is standard fare for most Warrior players.
The bad things:
-- You want a BSB. Forunately, you're saving enough points all over your list that you can afford to just turn around and hand one of those Exalteds the upgrade to become a BSB. Nothing's worse than watching ~300pts of Warriors get run down by Empire Spearmen just because you rolled Boxcars on your Leadership check.
-- Chosen have really fallen out of favor with me, in favor of saving (in your case) 60pts to admit that the EotG roll is just a gimmick. WS6 is no better than WS5 (WS3 hits them both on 4's) and otherwise Chosen have no other benefits. Knock them down to Warriors and you're golden.
-- You've got commands where you don't need them. For the price of a Champion, you can get another Warrior. If you're escorting a character that can't hold his own in combat, maybe keep the Champ on board. Otherwise, admit that he's just going to be forced to challenge some ridiculous combat Lord and give your enemy free overkill points.
-- 2 Exalteds. Chaos characters are expensive. Our Sorcerers are paying to be mediocre fighting characters plus casters, and our fighting Heroes are paying to be as deadly as most Lords, while our Lords are just downright despicable. Add those two Exalteds together, and you're spending 360pts. Look at your Chosen, sans "Chosen", Champion, and Favor. Ask yourself which you'd rather have: 10 attacks and 4 wounds, or 20 wounds and 15 attacks plus 3 ranks... see why relying on Exalteds is sort of pointless? If you come across a character, just target him with 4 Warriors and watch him drop like a fly. 4 Warriors have more attacks than your Exalted, probably hit just as well as he does, and you know that if the enemy somehow scores 2 wounds on you, you're still going to get all those attacks (rather than having your Exalted drop dead and leave your enemy free of harm).
Also- are you allowed to use special characters? If you are, I cannot stress Wulfrik and Festus in your army somewhere. Wulfrik is great at shifting gunlines, and getting to those annoying Vampire Generals and Heirophants who tend to duck out of challenges so that their army doesn't crumble. He also likes eating Slann for lunch. Festus on the other hand is part of 2 different comboes - the WitherCurse, which kill and entire enemy unit with just 2 spells, and the "Will It Blend", a block of Warriors with AddHW's, MoK, and the Razor/Flaming Banner, which does WAY more damage than the typical block of Halberdiers and will walk right through enemy monsters.
Good luck in your tournament, I've been using my Warriors on the tourney scene for about 2 years now, and I've loved them more and more each time. Just grabbed second in my last outing, behind -get this- another Warriors player. They're not the top army in the game, but they're in the top 3-5, and that's more than enough to grab a win with some good generalship behind you.
@Sarathai: I agree with many of the suggestions that you make, but you are little off on some of your rules calls. For example, regarding Unit Camps and challenges: "Champions can accept and issue challenges in the same manner as a character" (pg 93, small rule book). Thus, you don't need the Warshrine to allow your Champions to challenge ahead of a Character because "only one challenge can be issued per combat" (pg 102 srb). Furthermore, the Eye of the Gods rule specifies that "Chaos models that may issue challenges must do so whenever they are able..." (Armybook pg 43, emphasis mine). Because the rule specifies model, not character, there can be no argument that the Champ cannot issue the challenge in the place of a character. Also, to tie back to the one challenge per combat, the EotG rule specifies a model that "may" issue a challenge must. If the challenge has already been made, then the character cannot issue the challenge, and thus is under no compunction to do so.
Additionally, the Standard Bearer in the Marauder Cav will not be killed in the event that the unit decides to flee as a charge reaction. I am not 100% certain that this is the claim you are making, but to avoid confusion for others I am going to clarify anyways. The "Last Stand" states that "the only time a standard bearer can be removed as a casualty before the musician and other rank-and-file models is if the unit breaks from combat." (pg 94 srb, emphasis mine). Fleeing as a charge reaction is not breaking, so the Standard is safe to do so.
As for your suggestions about changing the list, I agree with most of what you say. It is a matter of preference, but I find Warhounds to be indispensable to my battles as they first and foremost allow me to out deploy my opponent, and then to secondarily be a nuisance as they clog charges, march block, etc.
I agree that Great Weapons on anything other than Marauders or either kind of Ogre is a waste of our excellent initiative, one of our greatest advantages in combat. I feel that all the other weapon options are superior for both preserving that initiative and for being cheaper. I also agree that Stormson probably went a little overboard with characters. Let's face it, out unit champs are equal to quite a number of enemy characters. Spending that many points on combat characters means we have that many fewer wounds and attacks on the table. The only time to take a combat character is, in my opinion, when you are going looking for a challenge, but even then you can often do better by forgoing the challenge and just allocating a number of attacks onto a given character. A BSB is a near imperative at this points level, and I feel that a couple more Wizard Levels would not go amiss either, even if it is a lvl 1 Tzeentch Scroll Caddy with the 3rd eye. And by the way, the Mark of Tzeentch is generally accepted to be superior to the Mark of Nurgle. The one possible exception to this that I would pose is if you combine the Mark of Nurgle with the Signature spell from the Lore of Shadows. With this, you are dropping enemy weapon skill between 2 and 4, potentially making even WS 6 enemies hit you on 5+. Granted this is not particualrly likely, but neither are there all that many WS 6 units. It is very feasible to drop WS4 and 5 units to WS 2, thus making them hit you on 5+