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I'll make this quick, here goes (by the way, I'm a begginner, by this I mean I will probably have broken a few rules, please tell me which).
Lord of Chaos:w00t:
Mark of Khorne, great weapon, shield, gaze of the gods, armour of damnation and mounted on a barded chaos steed (I'm thinking of upgriding it to a juggernaught).
Blade of the ether/Spell breaker, Soul hunger (Here I'm not sure, again, opinions are welcome).
Mark of Khorne, Shield, Axe of khorne, Great weapon, Mounted on barded chaos steed.
Mark of Khorne, Enchanted shield, Rending sword, Great weapon, Mounted on barded chaos steed.
Musician, Shields, Flails.
Mark of Khorne.
Mark of Khorne, Full command.
Mark of Khorne, Great weapons, Light armour, Full command (they can't have musician, what a pity, it would have been a cool conversion).
Great weapon, Light armour.
I think this army could really work, initially I wanted a infantry themed army, but the sad truth is that I wont be able to afford it (down here in Argentina, models are sold individully).
Again, PLEASE FIRE AWAY without any fear of verbal or written reprisal (although I can't promise you I won't, someday, if I find you, physicaly hurt you, I AM a Khorne follower you know).
LET THE RIVERS OF BLOOD FLOW> WAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.
For 3000 pts, you have an awful small army there ^_^
Try thinning your caracters, and getting some more knights.
Or, you could go all the way and get a Chaos Dragon on your lord ! Go monstrous speed theme.
I thought I'd seen everything, but a 3000 point army with only 54 models! :blink: I can't ever see this army winning, sorry dude but seriously, you're just going to get overwhelmed. So many players forget that numbers count for a lot in Warhammer, you haven't even got any ranked up units! And where are all these mounted characters going to go? You're gonna squeeze them into two units of knights? Or will one of them lead the Marauder horsemen?!Er, are you trying to flush points down the toilet? Why the hell have you given these two goons both great weapons and magic weapons? If you were thinking of having both so you'd have an option when starting a fight, think again. The rulebook states that if a character has a functioning magic weapon, they must use it regardless of whether they have other weapons or not. I know there are things in the game that can destroy magic items, but really, what are the chances? And even if one of them loses their magic sword, who cares? They've got four strength 5 attacks as standard!Originally Posted by GermyThe rest of your core choices are fine (apart from the fact that you have no actual main combat units!), and even minotaurs are good, but what have you given them light armour for?! I know it doesn't cost much and I know those 3000 points are burning a hole in your roster sheet, but giving anyone a 6+ save is pretty much pointless! If they had the option for heavy armour then that might be worth taking, but light armour is just wasting more points.Originally Posted by GermyLose the Giant (I know he's big and difficult to lose, but please try!), the Shaggoth is more than capable of filling the monstrous creature slot. And he's far more reliable than the giant will ever be.Originally Posted by GermyAh, the Shaggoth. Marvellous thing, except when facing cannon filled Dwarf or Empire armies. Then he just becomes a cannonball magnet and usually dies well before turn three, much like the giant in fact. Although the giant also dies when shot at by arrows and handguns. The Shaggoth on the other hand has a decent armour save, especially when he's given light armour, like you have done here. Well done.Originally Posted by Germy
See how this works?
Shaggoth is given light armour and combined with his existing scaly skin, gets a decent armour save.
That's good. (Y)
The minotaurs are given light armour, and get a worthless 6+ save.
That's bad. (N)
Finally, when deciding what weapons to give him, did you do this?:
'Hmm, would two hand weapons or a great weapon be better? I shall stop for a minute and consider what opponents I will be facing, then I'll choose his weapons.'
I bet you didn't did you? I bet you just slapped a great weapon on him without a second though. A bit like a reflex action, because you're obsessed with great weapons aren't you?! :yes: Y'see, a great weapon is all well and good, and they have their uses. But it forces him to strike last and is completely pointless if all he's going up against are troops with average toughness and armour saves. He's strength 5 anyway, so unless you're facing Bretonnians, Ogres or Empire Knight armies, why not just give him two hand weapons for more initiative-order attacks?
Finally, please get at least one or two decent sized infantry units in there (not just 12 chosen warriors!). Your army needs some staying power and something to act as the anvils to the shedload of hammers you have in your army. Marauders are cheap and core for a reason!
Last edited by Tzeentch Lord; March 1st, 2006 at 13:21.
"Peace, through superior firepower."
About the great weapons........damn, you got me. Yes I like them and I got carried away. I see your point. Apart from that, I thought that I could choose which weapon a character would use in each combat.....aparently I was wrong.
On the light armour on the minotaurs issue, I didn't know what I was thinking!!!! Maybe I imagined it was heavy armour instead and they could carry shield (it would have been worth it in that case, wouldn't it?) or that they also had scaly skin, guess I missed out.
I like the giant, he makes for a very cool conversion from a batman of my childhood (jus kidding, although it wouldn't be such a bad idea). Also, you say he's worse than the shaggoth, I'll have to disagree with you here: The Shaggoth is a little better in terms of saving throw (and costs an additional special slot), but the giant can be MEAN in close combat and against other monsters and is L10 Stubborn (maybe I'm just traumatised because I once saw one charge a unit of slaves, a few bad die rolls on both sides later turned into a combat with no wounds and a shaggoth being run down by rats). I see also your point on the Shaggoth's weapon of choice though, I'll take it into account.
Now, for the serious part, I really can't see why this army is so bad: I can control my units by means of the warhounds and the furies, It has a relative good speed and many possible two-one punches (I mean charging a unit of knights or minoturs and a chariot or a beastie into one unit). It has three terror causing THINGS. AND it has two mean flankers to both protect my flanks and worry the enemy (I can even help one of them out with a champin or THE DEMON). I find it a very flexible army and to tell you the truth, the real reason why I didn't include infantry is that I can't give the Mark of Khorne to marauders (which I think sucks by the way). Thing is, I will around 3/4 of the time, choose my fights, that means I will probably won't be forced to charge into a position which leaves me vulnerable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to win any argument here, but I don't understand what is it that makes this army so weak.
Appart from all that, there is something deeper than winnig for this army, I like the theme of an all mounted khorne kickass raiding force (in the future I would like an Archaon's horde and that would definitely go with infantry) that can not be tracked and can move faster than most armies as the infantry's (very) slow movement can end up being the bane any army including it's cavalry (for those of you that like history, ask Guy de Lusignan between the second and the third crusades).
Anyway, I greatly appreciate your time and the thought you gave to analizing the army.
You'r welcome it the halls of Gritzcoz anytime
LET THE RIVERS OF BLOOD FLOW>WAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHH
Unfortunately, that is the harsh truth, written in black and white. I wasn't tearing you a new one about it, but it's important that you're made aware of little things like this. Now you can save yourself some points on unnecessary gear and buy more troops!Originally Posted by Germy
When it comes to great weapons though, I really do dislike them. As I said, they can be just the tools for the job in certain circumstances (like duffing up knights!), but, as you know, they have two serious downsides; they force you to strike last and they prevent the model from carrying a shield. Generally, for regular troops and characters, the strength boost just doesn't justify having to suffer these two disadvantages. For models who can't carry shields (minotaurs, shaggoths), only the first disadvantage is an issue. But even then, you have to ask yourself, would two hand weapons be more efficient? :huh:It would indeed be very worthwhile, but once again, the army book says otherwise. I also wish the minotaurs at least had the option of heavy armour, but shields too would be ace! Notice that the Chaos Ogres have the option of heavy armour and shields though, but they can't have a Mark...Originally Posted by GermyI know what you mean here, I've only made that mistake once! Charging a Shaggoth into the front of a ranked up unit is a bit like charging 5 knights into the same thing. If they don't do enough wounds, they'll get owned on the combat resolution and possibly leg it. This is why it's important to get flank or even rear charges with the shaggoth. He's big enough to negate rank bonuses, he causes terror and he gets to face any direction he likes at any point during his movement.Originally Posted by Germy
That means he's much more maneuverable than any heavy cavalry and hits just as hard! Plus, he can take about as much damage as a 5-strong unit of knights, but unlike a knights unit, he fights at full effect until his last wound is gone. If you think of him like a more compact cavalry unit rather than a linebreaker monster, you'll get much more value for points from him.
In all fairness, I guess Giants probably have their uses, just like anything else. He'd do well against Skaven if it were not for the fact that Jezzails would drop him before he got very far (large target, no armour and all the rest of it...) As for the rest of your army, if it does actually work reliably as an effective army (as in, doesn't get pounded every time), then to hell with what I think. Generally, I'm of the Hammer-and-Anvil school of tactics. I use large ranked up units of tough infantry as my Anvils, and I use Knights, Shaggoths, Spawn, Minotaurs and all those other nice things as my Hammers. Anything else like flyers, skirmishers and magic are simply there to take out specific annoyances like artillery, shooters and wizards, then possibly help out with the proper fighting if they're still alive! :w00t:
"Peace, through superior firepower."
Thanks again for your feedback. On the Shaggoth who got run down by rats (I though this would be fun to tell) it wasn't even me playing: I was watching and suddenly the chaos player sweared (for like ten minutes) and proceeded to remove the model. At first I though: that must be the skaven's BEST unit (later learned it was the worst). Just comes to show you how low things can get in this game (a centuries old half dragon/half ogre who is a worshipper of the most baddass god being cut down by a mere pack of rats).
I agree Germy, it does seem slightly ridiculous doesn't it!? Can you imagine such a scene happening in a Warhammer novel? You'd throw the book away and denounce it as complete crap! Yet in the game, an event like that is all too likely as the Shaggoth's stats and abilities are far below what they should be for such a powerful demi-godlike creature. But I suppose that if it had stats that accurately reflected it's true power, the model would be nearly unstoppable and it's points cost would be through the roof!
It would be nice if it were Unbreakable though, or at least Stubborn like the Giant (as it is something of a Giant itself...)
"Peace, through superior firepower."
First off, I suggest revising the point costs, I noticed a few mistakes early in the list. I stand by Tzeentch's advice thus far, it all sounds like something I'd say, although said in a much more effective and humourous manner. Not like I'm expected to be the articulate one between us... anyways, the afformentioned fluffy Shaagoth (as opposed to the actual toned-down one) would never happen if only because it would end up as a clone of the Bloodthirster. And lets face it, we only need one.
A couple of points I'd like to further reinforce: One or two fully ranked units are a must in almost any army, and here's why - usually, a player can take a little bad luck and do okay. Without static combat resolution to fall back on though, all combat relies on the dice results.
Also, it is important to know that against most infantry great weapons will not do anything.
I have to agree with khorne lord as well. Ranked infantry units are a must. Think of it this way. Everything relies on dice roles in warhammer. When your fighting combat with your character against an enemy infantry unit and you get bad roles and end killing only a few models, your screwed. The enemy gets there standard, an outnumber, and probably a rank bonus of +3. Your characters probably gonna run for the hills. On the other hand with 20 ranked chosen chaos warriors of khorne not only do you get more attacks. If you end up not making many kills you still might end up outnumbering, you get a rank bonus of +3 and a standard, which means even IF you lose combat its by a teenie tiny margin and you're probably not going to run