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Barring Mark restrictions how do furies stand up against screamers?
You can field 6-7 furies for about the price of 3 screamers... if you only have the room for one unit, which should you go for? I am sure there comes a point where screamers will beat out furies for potential in a game and vice versa. In your experience when is that?
i shall make a sum of the facts through a comparison and then give my opinion
cheaper = more models
undivided = army flexibility
"two-in-one style" attacks and wounds = less models
well the comments now :shifty:
-about the number of models: this can be a double edged sword;
i mean, if you want to maximize the weight of your unit or the maneuverability:
because if you lose some furies you could still have the weight to do something (fear-breaking or +1 cc modifier)
but on the other hand, if the target is a well-dug-in warmachine (as i saw warmachines placed right between 2 massive cc units), if you concentrate attacks on less models you become more effective.
-the screamers have a very higher leadership, which may make the difference at instability: between an entrire unit vanished and maybe one screamer dead.
hey...leadership 6 is sooooo low!!!!
-the screamers have more toughness which means more durability, but this is also provided by furies' higher ws that would probably make the enemy be hit on 3+ instead of 4+ and so there should be fewer attacks returned after the charge.
but in the end i prefer 2 attacks by 1 tougher model than 1 attack from a better fighting model, but weaker, because ws 3 or 4 usually makes no difference for the enemy score to hit you.
-frankly, i never used the screaming attack, because it is unattractive compared to cc...if it was like every model in the enemy unit took 1 hit per screamer, this would have been great (and more senseful). but screamers are no nazghuls LOL
hope i helped!
Last edited by Hollow_Man; July 24th, 2007 at 21:00.
In my opinion screamers are nearly always superior to furies for a variety of reasons. It basically comes down to the mission of the unit. Fliers are used for four primary purposes.
1. Seeking out and destroying high-value, low toughness enemy units: War Machines, lone wizards, etc.
2. Seeking out and destroying enemy light units and flankers: Skirmishers, light cavalry, scouts, etc.
3. Assisting other units by charging enemy units in the rear.
4. Interfering with your enemy's plans by preventing them from marching.
You'll notice that all three of these missions dictate the the fliers are going to be operating primarily without support, often behind enemy lines. This means that, lacking support, they are likely to be countercharged and annihilated unless they can defeat their enemies quickly and decisively. Therefore the best flier is the one that inflicts the most damage with the greatest speed while taking the least damage in return. On both these counts, the screamer is considerably superior to the furie, consider:
Against a 3 man war machine crew. The screamers and furies both have a frontage of 3 models, this gives the screamers 6 attacks vs. the furies 3. The screamers will likely score 2 wounds to the furies 1.33 wounds. When the war machine crew strikes back the screamers will take .11 wounds vs. the furies .33 wounds. Obviously on an average day both units will win combat and break their enemies in a single turn, however, it is enormously easier for furies to loose combat than it is for screamers, and once they have lost furies are very likely to cease to exist due to the combination of their low leadership and daemonic instability.
Take the case of a unit of 5 mounted marauders. The screamers would have a frontage of 5 models giving them 10 attacks = 3.33 wounds while receiving (assuming the marauders have flails) 1.1 wounds. The furies, on the other hand, with their frontage of 7 models get 7 attacks = 2.33 wounds while receiving 1.98 wounds in return. The fallout: A unit of 7 screamers will defeat a unit of 5 mounted marauders on the charge virtually all the time, even without hitting them in the flank or rear. While a unit of, say, 10 furies, will loose combat thanks to the marauders musician (both sides inflict 2 wounds, the furies outnumber the marauders for +1, but the marauders have a standard for +1 leading to a drawn combat decided by the musician, this is why you should always give units full command, incidentally) and likely be destroyed. Not only that, but the unit of screamers, having received only 1 wound is still fully combat effective, while the furies didn't even inflict 50% casualties, failed to kill any of the command models, and were themselves destroyed.
I think I've made it amply clear why furies loose out to screamers on our first two missions. In the third mission the screamers are still ahead. Take our example of the marauders as a guide: In order to gain the +2 bonus for charging an enemy unit in the rear a unit needs at least a unit strength of 5. This means that a unit of 5 or 6 furies assisting another unit by rear-charging an enemy is likely to loose so many models in the ensuing fighting that they contribute nothing while giving the enemy easy wounds to bolster their combat resolution. 6 or 7 screamers, by contrast, will likely retain enough models to get the +2 bonus for rear charging, and will not give the enemy easy wounds. You could get a larger unit of furies to make sure you still have enough models to get the +2 for rear charging, but since you're likely to loose at least two furies they actually are contributing nothing to the combat and are wasting even more of your points.
Now that I have made it clear that screamers are superior to furies in almost every way (without even taking the screamers slashing attack into account, consider, a unit of 7 screamers need only fly over a war machine crew to annihilate them most of the time) it is time to address the cost. The choice is a simple one.
Furies: Unit of 5. around seventy points. (You could buy more, but as I believe I have already explained, buying more doesn't do you any good since they are worthless for anything but taking out war machine crews).
Useful for taking out war machine crews and preventing march moves. Cheap.
Screamers: Unit of 7. almost 250 points. (You could easily buy more, with their slashing attack more screamers are always useful)
Useful for taking out war machines, skirmishers, light units, chariots, etc., supporting other units with flank and rear charges, interfering with march moves.
So here's how it works: If you can possibly afford them, get screamers. They are one of the most useful, and lethal, units in the game. If you can't afford screamers and you understand the extremely limited utility of furies and you still want the very few things that furies are capable of doing, get furies. Don't think for a second, however, that the two units are interchangeable.
Last edited by Karnak the Betrayer; July 26th, 2007 at 01:21.
Although the screamers are the better fighters I wouldn't completely advice for them. Especially for pointthey might do unexpectedly bad:3. Assisting other units by charging enemy units in the rear.
For being flyers, they won't negate any ranks, so apart from killings (and whilst the screamers' stats aren't bad they will perform poor against such enemy units where you would need any support) you get at best the +1 or +2 for flank/rear charge, but only if they keep above US4 (and the enemy, knowing this, will do his best to grind them down)
Oh, and against a 3 man warmachine crew, furies will get 4 into contact, not 3.
Besides, your comparison is a little bit in vain. Naturally, a unit which costs about three times as much as the other will do better in a certain task.
If you compare them on equal point base, like 3 Screamers vs 6 or 7 Furies, it looks a whole different, since an important factor for bot of them is fear in combination with outnumbering.Eh? Since the slashing attacks are worked out like shooting, they are also distributed like shooting. So on the average 4 or 5 of the autohits will go on the war machine (and str3 vs to7 can't even wound) and the remaining 2 or 3 hits will find it quite difficult to annihilate 3 crewmen in one go (even worse if it's dwarves)a unit of 7 screamers need only fly over a war machine crew to annihilate them most of the time
And another argument against screamers: Your general will have to be either chaos undivided or tzeentch-marked.
Whilst that shouldn't pose too much of a hindrance it might hamper you if you wanna play certain lists.
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
"they might do unexpectedly bad:"
Obviously unexpected things happen in Warhammer all the time. Good generalship, however, is not about hoping to get lucky, it's about maximizing your chances of victory by doing everything possible to ensure that your plans will correctly execut. What I showed is that due to the enormous discrepancy in their fighting abilities Screamers will usually contribute value to the combats they participate in, while Furies will usually contribute nothing or even be a drawback.
"...and whilst the screamers' stats aren't bad they will perform poor against such enemy units where you would need any support."
I don't know why you would say this. Even against a hard unit like, say Five Chaos Knights, Screamers will still inflict .83 wounds and take only 2.14 wounds in return, thus contributing +1 to CR. The Furies would deal out only .58 wounds and take 2.73 wounds in return, thus contributing nothing to the combat. Even a small statistical variation will cause the Furies to inflict 0 wounds and contribute -1 to the CR, whereas a very large statistical variation is necessary for the Screamers to do so.
"...against a 3 man warmachine crew, furies will get 4 into contact, not 3."
Oops! You're right, my bad.
"...a unit which costs about three times as much as the other will do better in a certain task."
I think you've missed my point. Screamers are not better at certain tasks. They are capable of certain tasks. They are useful for certain tasks. Furies are not less capable for these tasks. They are useless for them, or even actively detrimental to their own side. The difference is not a relative difference of scale, but an absolute difference of ability.
"If you compare them on equal point base, like 3 Screamers vs 6 or 7 Furies"
I do not seek to compare them on an equal points basis. There is no reason to take a unit of 3 screamers any more than there is reason to take a unit of 15 Furies. I simply argue that you are better off spending more points and getting a unit of enormous utility, than spending many fewer points and getting a unit of very limited utility. Inasmuch as their abilities are so different straight comparisons on their points cost are meaningless.
"Since the slashing attacks are worked out like shooting, they are also distributed like shooting."
Here we must agree to disagree. Where I play (San Diego) the fact that slashing attack hits count as "missile hits and can thus cause panic attacks" is interpreted to mean that although the hits take place during the movement phase they can still cause panic in the shooting phase. It is not interpreted to mean "these hits are distributed like shooting hits" because generally when a special attack is distributed as shooting hits the rules will say so. Furthermore, if we use common sense it is clear that the slashing attack differs from shooting in that it is delivered at HtH range. However, if you have an agreement with the people you know then I suppose you could argue your position and play that way. In any case, there is no FAQ on the issue.
"And another argument against screamers: Your general will have to be either chaos undivided or tzeentch-marked."
This is even more an argument against furies, who are considered to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided. (This is made clear in Storm of Chaos)
So, to briefly reiterate: Screamers and Furies are not comprable. They are very different units with very different capabilities. If you want good air support spend the extra points and get screamers. If you don't have the points you could get furies instead, but you have to be aware that furies aren't "screamers lite" as they are simply incapable of doing much of what screamers excel at.
Hope this was helpful.
Last edited by Karnak the Betrayer; July 26th, 2007 at 19:44.
But other special attacks aren't noted for counting as missile hits and missile hits will get distributed (so no need to state it seperately)because generally when a special attack is distributed as shooting hits the rules will say so.
Furthermore, ich something allows to choose a target within a unit, this is also usually specifically noted, but in this case it isn't. Had they written that they'd be worked out like hth hist (where you can allocate your attacks) this would be differentAhem, if we counter-use the same commone sense we could say that the warmachine crew takes cover alonside their warmachine so some of the slashs won't hit them.Furthermore, if we use common sense it is clear that the slashing attack differs from shooting in that it is delivered at HtH range.So what? No matter what Mark the General gets, you can always field units with the Mark of Chaos undividedThis is even more an argument against furies, who are considered to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided. (This is made clear in Storm of Chaos)
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
A couple of points I haven't heard addressed:
Vulnerability to shooting:
-Screamers are easier to hit (don't get the 'skirmishing' bonus), but harder to wound, with BS based missile weapons.
-Screamers have multiple wounds/model, and are more expensive. Therefore they are a much better target for weapons which do multiple wounds, particularly bolt throwers/cannons.
-You can more easily justify throwing away a small unit of furies than a small unit of screamers, pointswise.
Due to these reasons alone, I tend to prefer furies. I want big expensive units to be a little more robust. However, Karnak makes some very valid points for screamers, and I may try them out soonish.
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!
I have to agree with Orkbert here, their slashing attack is worked out as shooting hits. The rules are quite clear on shooting against artillery, most will hit the war machine itself, doesn't matter where the hits come from. This makes the slashing attack next to worthless against a fully crewed war machine. Charging is always far more effective (even against a lone crewman). I only use the slashing attack if I happen to be passing over an enemy unit on the way to a juicier target, I never go out of my way to use it.a unit of 7 screamers need only fly over a war machine crew to annihilate them most of the time
Personally I always take four to five Screamers in any army I field, they've never failed me yet and are always a major threat to the enemy's artillery/wizards/necromancers/light cavalry etc. My opponents quickly learn to hate them! Which makes them even more valuable, as the more annoying they get, the more my opponents go out of their way to try and neutralise them.
"Peace, through superior firepower."
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!