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In commenting on an army list, I made a comment which I considered completely non controversial and barely worthy of discussion, but which drew several sharp disagreements.
The comment was (paraphrasing) that the Lore of Tzeentch is one of the weakest magical lores in Warhammer, so much so that it makes Tzeentch mortals a very uncompetitive army choice.
DO other players find Tzeentch lore to be good? Personally I find it to be quite weak because on any given magic phase, it is very likely that whichever spells you have will not be useful for the situation, will be well out of range, or will simply be quite terrible in general (Indigo Fire). As a general facing Tzeentch, I never feel overwhelmed because no matter how many dice my opponent has, he will only cast one or two spells that matter to me.
Most importantly, Tzeentch Lore has no "rule changing" spells. By this I mean it has no spells which affect movement, leadership, shooting, or spell casting. Nothing about a Tzeentch army allows you to disrupt your opponent's plan, unless your opponent's plan is to never take casualties.
Hehe, no wonder you drew some sharp disagreements!
The lore isn't weak by any means. Each spell, bar number 6, has a pretty good use I feel. Infact, i've just finishe an article on it as part of the Beasts of Chaos tactica, heres the link, it'll prevent me just repeating myself:
When you say there's no disruption or stat changing spells, look at Indigo fire. Has the ability to keep a unit on combat, and stop it moving, shooting, cast certain spells etc...
BTW, brace yourself
Indigo Fire basically requires a certain kind of target to be effective, and that target is almost certain to be the kind of fodder regiment that your opponent would love to see soaking up a spell that probably cost you four dice to cast.
The horrors that are summoned are unlikely to have any serious effect, because Indigo fire can only be used against an unengaged enemy, which means that they are going to have to deal with ranks, command models, and outnumbering in that first two rounds of combat. Lost combat more than likely means *poof* and the net result is that you did 7-10 casualties vs a unit that is meant to absorb casualtes, and in the process all kinds of other bad things can happen (you miscast, your fodder unit dying causes one of your "real" units to panic, etc).
Look at Tzeentch lore in general and you notice a lack of spells that can be cast into combat. You notice a distinct lack of spells with long range. I think if you're swapping red fire vs the other guy's shooting and longer ranged magic, you're going to be hurting.
Once you're in combat you basically have two spells, both of which can be useful, but not at the same time, because they're Remains in Play.
On top of all that, with no ability to choose spells or diversify into other lores, you risk being caught without the spell or spells that really match up vs your opponent. I hate the idea of being magic heavy and not having the spell that I really want or need.
A simple Spell Familiar will greatly help get the spell you need. 5 out of 7 is pretty darn good.
Even at strength 2, indigo fire can still work against normal infantry. eg, swordsman, spearelves (infact, near ANY elven unit ) and so forth. The fact that it hits EVERY model is the key. The horrors created aren't there to win combat, they just slow the enemy down and just get in the way.
Green and Red fire are the ranged spells in the list. Indigo and Blue are the mid ranged spells in the list. I dont think range is as big a problem as you make it. Just because there's no Comet type table-top spell, doesn't mean the range is bad.
The lack of spells for close combat is easily countered by one thing - you're a chaos army! you should be rock hard in combat as it is, and not really need magic assistance. But if you do, theres yellow and orange fire there for you. True they can't be cast at the same time, but who would need to? One or the other is plenty fine, as you generaly take a Ward Save for the General anyway...then it becomes re-rollable. OR you can give the whole unit a Ward if you can't get that spell off.
I believe the best Tz lists have a good mix of combat and magic, not just ALL magic, so I've had some good sucess with Tz Beasts, with just 2 or 3 casters. Usually 10 PD and 1 Bound Spell. On top of that Beasts are cheap as DIRT, so you can get a very decent Combat army backing up your Chars.
I wouldn't go around bashing the Tz lore, dude, simply because you can't see the potential in it.
That said, if you haven't seen the new Daemon lor of Tzeentch, make sure you do. I may give us a good idea of where the Mortal lore of Tzeentch will go in the WD update (which makes this even more pointless, with an update around the corner!)
Thats the problem Tzeethch are the worst in combat of the 5 marks and also have the worst psychology. The extra dice you generate is to pay for the over costed spells of the law. The mark you pay for for the characters mean that you have a small army.
Compare to Slaanesh, far better psychology one of the best hitting units in the game (chosen knights with the rapturous banner) and a law that mainly does not need LOS to use.
Fat Frogs are immune to miscast, High elves can ignore the first miscast but Tzeentch???? One miscast at the beginning of your magic phase leaves you with a very poor army and probably loosing a minimum of a 150 point character to boot!
Sure potentially you have some powerful spells but any player knows what to let through and what to dispel, so you simply cannot do enough damage against them to stop them hitting you in the third turn at the latest. Once your mages are in combat you cannot use most of the dice that you have in your pool. So basically poor old Tz got shafted big time.
I have seen magic loaded high elves, lizardmen, Slaanesh, VC and Tomb kings all win tournaments regular, i don't see Tz winning tournaments very often at all.
So in rounding off, if you want fun, take it. If you want to win a tourney play something else.
Last edited by null_sheen; April 27th, 2008 at 22:52. Reason: speeling
Timk, for all of what you said, you miss an important fact: Tzeentch mortals were my first army in Warhammer, starting with sixth edition. Because I was new to Warhammer, I didn't really look beyond the fact that I could make stuff blow up and attack itself. So many dice on top of it! Wow, that seemed like it would be good.
Then reality set in, and I saw opponents decimate me at my own game while playing high elves, skaven or lizardmen, or completely ignore my magic when playing dwarfs or khorne. Even against armies that just took a scroll caddie, they could often use scrolls against the 1-2 really crucial spell casts while shooting me apart or outnumbering me. Over time I de emphasized the magic slightly, shifted to playing slaanesh mortals instead, and found that my magic was suddenly much more potent, even though I had fewer dice to roll. I no longer spent my time looking at an enormous pile of power dice with only one or two useable spells to cast each turn.
I don't slam on Tzeentch in order to denigrate those who play them, because I played them and if the lore wasn't so lackluster, I'd probably still play them. I just don't think the lore is very good, and I am surprised when people say otherwise. I wonder how their experience can be so radically different from mine, and if so, why I never see posters here talk about how tough Tzeentch magic can be, the way that they might talk about Lizardmen, High elves, or vampire counts.
As far as the new Tzeentch lore goes, yes, that is ridiculously good. The emphasis on magic missiles is still there, but the spells have greater consistency to them, more forgiving casting values, and at least one REALLY rules changing spell (can't recall the name off hand, but it allows you to cast an opponent's spell as a bound spell).
If tzeentch demons have an achilles heel, I doubt it will be their magic.
I'm interested to see what the "get-you-by" rules in next month's WD look like, as maybe then I can go back to playing tzeentch mortals and not feel like the world's biggest sucker.
I have to admit i have not seen the new law for Tzeentch, just Slaanesh but boy is Slaanesh a great lore i do hope for the Tzeentch players sake that its law is even better.
Just saw the new lore in the rumors section, its quite nice i have to say the second one is only worth it on the lord "maybe" but the rest are useful. The 4th one will be great when they finally make it into combat with you, but expect the scroll or dispel dice to be held for it. the borrow magic spell could also be useful.
Its definatly improved, no doubt, im still not sure if its "uber".
Last edited by null_sheen; April 27th, 2008 at 23:03. Reason: Just saw the new lore
Well, I have not always found Tzeentchian magic to be vary good, when I started off I tended to get annihilated on a regular basis by a mates magic heavy goblin army. My mistake was in trying to keep my characters points costs down.
Once I rectified this and went balls-out I noticed a significant increase in blastyness. I find that the magic can do a decent amount of damage even against Vampire Counts (where my favourite spell is useless and all the enemy are casters, meaning a fair few dispel dice AND the buggers get back up again).
The name refers to facial hair, not playing style.Originally Posted by A news vendor's stand, London, June 1940