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Hi guys, I'm relatively new to WFB. I've played my share of 40K, but have always been interested in WFB, so I decided to start a WoC army. I've been playing my friend a lot who plays Daemons and every battle has been a slaughter and was hoping you could give me some pointers.
I don't have a whole lot of models to work with so he lets me borrow some of his. I have an Exhaulted Champ, Nurgle Sorcerer, regiment of warriors with extra hand weapons, regiment of marauders with armor and sheilds, and 5 chaos knights. I've tried using different combinations including using some of his warriors, marauders, maurader horseman, and some more sorcerers. No matter the combinations, I'm still getting slaughtered. He mostly uses bloodletters, plaguebears, and will mix things up occasionally with special characters.
I'm finding it frustrating because these are two very hard hitting close combat armies, but it looks like Daemons have the upper hand. I'm also finding the chaos knights to be way overpriced. They always seem to be breaking and they can't win combat.
I'm still new to fantasy so that is part of it, but I'm wondering if the WoC might not be the best army. And advice would be great. Thanks!
I found my best success against DoC was with a gunline force. I play dwarves to do it, and the runic warmachines and cannons can do a fair bit of destructions before the bastard run into solid blocks of tough dwarf warriors.
I am sure you can use the same tactic with other armies. I just found that you need to control the phases they don't and mainly that leaves shooting, esp against Bloodletters with thier soft 3T.
Just my 2 cents.
Try using combos. If you charge 1 unit vs 1 unit, you might not have enough punch to get through and the next turn you will be in troubles.
Try charging one unit with:
-knights with a hero or lord -knights usually do a lot of damage, but a few more wounds done by a charcter can make a lot of differance.
-knights with a chariot -same as above
-block of marauders with a chariot -marauders provide ranks and banner CR and chariot provides damage.
Ok, I tend to play DoC, so I'll give a biut of advice.
First off, ignore the plaguebearers. If he has PB's, he has a herald, and they have regen, and are probably in a large unit so he can win with static CR. They are slow though, so you should try your best to not get into combat with them. This isn't very hard, as the herald is likely his top choice for BSB, he uses it to flank charge with bloodletters, so his army will likely deploy around it. Wait for him to put them down, then deploy most of your force far away. He'll spend most of the game trying to get things there. If your feeling particulerly cheeky, try and get a fast moving wizard near them with either lore of tzeentch, fire, or shadow. Each has at least one spell that can easily kill PB's without them getting thier regen save.
Bloodletters are deceptively strong, and the thing your going to need to consider is theat they have very little distinction going though warriors or marauders. This means marauders are the best choice, cause they get less points if they win, and you can take them in large units cause they're cheap. If bloodletters are arranged in ranks of five w command, they need to get a wound with every attack to cancel outyour static combat res if you have a banner and 3 ranks. wearing them down like this is the best option.
You may want to consider march blocking with the marauder horsemen, as daemons rely on combat to win unless they go magic heavy (and since you didn't mention horrors, I doubt that is the case). without knowing what else he uses, that's the best adivce I can give.
1. I'd take your Exaulted Champion, give him MoK, slap him on a jugger, give him a shield ( equals a armor save of 0+ ), and a magic weapon ( chaos runesword ) if the points will allow. He can plow into the front rank, of the heaviest unit, and still come out on top!
2. Take a sorcerer with a MoT, book of secrets, and a power familiar. This will give him the dice, close to, a wizard lord for only 190pts. You can still use a sorcerer with MoN, power stone, and a dispel scroll. A good back-up sorcerer for 185pts.
3. Your CWs unit , with extra hand weapons, do they have a mark? They should have a MoK, and for some fun, the Rapturous Standard. You can also go for a MoS, for being immune to fear, terror, and panic, should put a kink in your opponent's battleplan.
4. I, personally, go for marauder horsemen. Keeping them "fast calvary", you can really be your opponent's PIA, hehe. Units of 5 horsemen with throwing spears, light armor, and a musicain, can run around and throw sticks into opposing unit's flanks. You can also use units of 5 horsemen, flails, light armor, full command, and a MoK, for flanking to break rank bonuses. Use this type of unit with your knights.
( editor's note : Thanks to all who helped on my "Questions about flails" thread. )
5. How do you use your knights? I enjoy units of 5, with full command, and either the MoK with their enscorcelled weapons, or MoN with lances and the festering shroud ( just make sure this unit does not come into contact with the PB's or the banner will not work ). You can also use the Banner of Rage, on either type of these knight units.
6. Have you considered some spawn or a giant?
Just my "two cents".
I'm assuming you are playing at ~1000 pts? Can you tell us what size blocks of troops you are using?
The banner of rage on the knights is a solid choice (though obviously you would never combine it with MoK).
For your CWarriors, I would suggest dropping the addtl hand weapons altogether, if you can. I greatly favor either just using shields (so use them as an unbreakable block, this pairs well with rapt standard), or using them with GWs as a canopener that can really hit hard. Personally, I always do the former, as if I want a hard hitting infantry, I would give GWs to Chosen. Some people also swear by halberds, but not me.
One of your greatest assets is warhounds. Use them, love them, abuse them, and throw them into your opponents gaping jaws. You can throw them right in front of your enemy and angle them so that if he charges them, he will be in an unfavorable position. Remember, you don't necessarily need to have a unit kill another unit worth it's points for it to be useful.
A sorcerer with MoT in addition to your nurgle sorcerer will go a long way to pushing spells through. Also, the base Tzeentch magic missile is flaming, so it will cut through regeneration.
If the exalted is on foot, then he is a pretty big points sink for something that your opponent will probably have more control over than you. Making him a BSB with rapt standard will prove for a unit that is INCREDIBLY hard to kill without taking them down to the last man standing.
All that said, you ARE facing an uphill battle. Coming into Fantasy against a more experience player that is using an army that is considered by most to be one of, if not THE most powerful, it's not going to be easy. Anyways. my biggest point of advice is to try out warhounds, they are an amazing addition to your movement phase, and they are cheap enough to gladly sacrifice. Don't get too greedy with them, sometimes flank charging a solid unit with them will result in better combat resolution for your enemy, as he will be getting more kills.
Combined charges will also be great, try to set up your hounds so that when your opponent gets through with them, he ends up in a space where you can charge him with a couple of your units (warriors/marauders + knights). It's not easy, but it's something you should start looking for.
Keep at it, and if it gets overly frustrating, see if you can find some other competition (non-daemons, and preferably non-VCs).
Take a load of cannons and stone throwers in your chaos warrior army.
Back them up with handgunners and some wood elf archers and you should be fine.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Control his movement. everything that needs to be said here has, albeit over a few different posts. Offer him cheap throwaway units to throw his infantry out of position.
Use spawn to guard your flanks. Spam him with magic missiles from your numerous wizards, which will also go towards minimising the effect of his own magic. The notables have given you a fair bit of useful advice.
If his heralds get a bit much, take an exalted on a steed of slaanesh with some suitably hitty gear, then make a ludicrously long charge, challenge the herald out and stomp him.
Also, tempting as the mark of Khorne is, try to avoid it for now. Against Daemons you need to retain control of your own army. Frenzied characters and units are often more of a hinderance than an aid.
Don't get frustrated, look at it as a challenge, an intellectual exercise to out-perform a more experienced opponent. That way, the first draw you manage will seem like a victory.
Consider swapping armies for a game. It'll do wonders for making you realise the weaknesses of a Daemon army. They are there, and the Daemon players know all about them.
Yeah, suggesting he bombard them w magic missles isn't going to work out when he has units of bloodletters. They have MR1, so if your going to use magic, take one with flaming attacks or those that cause I tests and go for the PB's
Also, the taking a champion and herald hunting will not work because the heralds uses will be either
1. higly mobile, flying tzeentch heralds, which you won't catch.
2. Heralds of Khorne, which mean you risk being killing blowed.
3. Heralds of Nurgle, who have no reason to accept.
The Herald does not need to be in the front rank or in combat to give his unit it's locus bonus. Having a hero who forces a challange just means he can repeatedly hide a herald of nurgle in the back ranks and watch you slowly go through the unit.
Honestly, deal with a plague bearers by march blocking with marauders. If you reduce them to thier base movement of 4, they will not be getting to the battle at all before the game ends.
For your wizard, I would adivse to against MoT unless you plan to have him on a disk. the Sad truth is you only going to have 2-3 spells with this wizard. the basic one will help you, but after that the only ones that will help are going to be high value or remain in play. This means you rsiking being in a position where you don't get effective spells, or your spells might not be useufl in a situation. there's also the matter that the basic spell, though flaming, isn't reliable. Though it will cast easier than most alternatives, it's random output means you could end up doing far less damage than hoped. If you use the disk you can make up for these losses with not only march blocking with the ability to fly, but with the points denial of removing such an exspensive character from being charged.
Now, if you not using the disk, I recommend lore of fire. It has a longer range, so will have uinits in range from turn 1. All the spells are useful in this lore as well, and all have flaiming attacks, ignoring regen. It is harder to cast though. It also has flaiming sword of rhuin, which combined with the sorcerers bsic chaosy statline, means you can use him as back up in case your must actually get into combat with things.
Thanks for all the great advice, much appreciated! I just got done playing a 1500 point game with my friend and things panned out a little better, but the result was the same: another loss. I wish I would have had a chance to read all of your suggestions before playing tonight I didn't feel as discouraged this time, however, as I made some changes.
I found that the EH is really ineffective on foot, so I put him on a juggernaut and attached him to my knights. This combo faired MUCH better, though I made a poor strategic move. I tried to flank his units with them, but due to the terrain placement, it took me a few turns to get there and most of my other units were already in trouble by that point. I tried to use the hounds to help flank with the knights but they too took a while to get into combat.
I also chose to scrap the mauraders for this game and go with 2 regiments of CWs, 15 a piece. One bearing MoK with additional weapons, the other MoN w/ shields. This gave me some staying power, but the PBs just tore me up (he had two units of them this time instead of just the one and the Bloodletters). I did find that not using the mauraders helped some.
So far, it's a lot of trial and error (I'm just glad my buddy has so many models that I can play-test before dropping the money . For our next game, I going to try using the hounds as a meat shield and try to get the jump on the charges with the other units. If I can avoid the PBs I'll try, but those seem to make up the most of his army. If I can't avoid them, I'll try taking some fire spells.
Thanks again for all the feedback! If anyone as any more suggestions please let me know.
Try to take what sorcerers you can.
Warhouds, and maybe marauder horsemen, to use as meatshields/speed bump.