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Just played my first game of Warhammer, ever, against some DE. Played a teeny 1,000 points game and was forced into my list by the models I own.
My list:24 Marauders:-Full command24 Marauders:-
Mark of KhorneFull command5 Marauder Horsemen:-
Mark of KhorneFull command5 Knights:-
Mark of KhorneFull commandExalted Hero:-
Mark of KhorneChaos Runesword
Mark of KhorneFirst turn, DE player used an 11+ casting spell which hit both Marauder units: something like, anything touched by the template suffers a strength 4/strength 5 wound, followed by the unit taking a panic test. One unit took eight casualties and passed the panic test; the other unit took 5 casualties and ran off the board. No chance of dispelling.
Second turn, DE player makes the charge with his Cold One Knights (including his general) into my Knight unit. I called a challenge, and watched in slight surprise as my Hero, taking four wounds, rolled three ones in his armour saves!! That should be illegal!! The remainder of my Knights took enough of a beating that they turned tail, ran and got run down.
My second unit of Marauders and the Marauder Horsemen between them managed to break and overrun a unit of 20 Spearmen (including the sorceress) and a unit of 20 Corsairs. The Horsemen then got wiped out by a unit of Repeater Crossbows, gleefully standing within short range due to my Frenzy-induced pursue move, while the remains of my Marauder unit got mooshed by the Cold One Knights.
I think that, had the challenge gone differently, I might actually have won the game. As it was, I was utterly wiped out. I still can't believe I failed those armour saves. Also, for his cast-on-11+, he rolled 11. That spell may have determined the outcome of the game, in fact. Maybe not.
Lessons I think I've gleaned from the game include:Anyone have any thoughts?
- Marauders are actually surprisingly decent in combat, if they get a chance to do damage to anything. However, unless filling out points gaps under 100 points, I think I'll avoid them in the future in favour of the hardier warriors - while they can be decent in combat, actually getting them there is damnably tricky.
- I need a scroll caddy, or some way of generating dispell dice.
- I need to be able to do damage in the Magic and Shooting phases - keeping my opponent thinking about as many things as possible is good.
- Even in a small game like this, I want a large, solid unit to absorb things like cavalry charges.
Last edited by el_don; November 16th, 2008 at 23:00.
I'd never play WoC in smaller points battles, we are so expensive. We don't really get to shine until 2k and up. Due to your points restrcitions you wont get much of anything except marauders.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
You think the best way forward in a game this size, then, is large units of Marauders/Marauder Horsemen? I was actually thinking about running a smaller, very compact force next time. Here's the list I've got so far:I'd plan on sitting my Warriors in a corner, or using terrain - cliffs or a building, say - to protect a flank and wait for the enemy to come to me - if I'm careful, I can keep out the way of shooting. If that's not possible, I'll just move forwards to hit stuff.21 Chaos Warriors• Shields5 Marauder Horsemen
• Full command
• Mark of Nurgle
• Banner of Wrath• Light armour5 Marauder Horsemen
• Throwing spears• Light armourChaos Warshrine
• Throwing spears
Chaos Sorceror• Dispel scrollExalted Hero
• Dispel scroll• Halberd
• Blood curdling roar
I'll sit the Warshrine out of danger behind the Warriors. The Warshrine would shoot power into the Warriors every turn until something good came up.
The Horsemen will be used to march-block enemy units, go after shooting units and cause a nuisance behind enemy lines with their throwing weapons. The spears mean I can go into the backs of units if it looks worthwhile.
Both the characters will go into the unit of Warriors. I figured a Halberd on the Hero is giving him +1 strength for four points and is very worth it. His Bloodcurdling roar and the Banner of Wrath can provide a little more for the opponent to worry about during the Shooting and Magic phases respectively.
Edit: I'm beginning to think you're right about the Marauder thing. My problem is that, against something like Elves, I'm not goign to be hitting first in almost any situation: I'm unlikely to get a charge and they're almost always going to have higher Initiative than me. This means my reduced Toughness and poor Armour start to cause problems. I guess I can manufacture static combat resolution with larger units and by using my cheap-as-chips Horsemen units for flank charges. Or maybe Chaos Hounds?
Would it be worth putting Heros into big units of Marauders to hold them around longer, or is it better to just spend those 110 points on another 30 Marauders, do you think? And what would you do to deal with magic? Let me go think about it and try come back with another list idea.
Ooh, also: thanks for the response and the thoughts!
Last edited by el_don; November 16th, 2008 at 23:15.
In what exp I have , with this new book, one should go with a Nurgle/Tzeentch force while facing "shooty" armies. Though, a hero of khorne, on a jugger, is always welcomed!
I find using the MoK, on marauder horsemen, is not a good thing. Its hard to have a fast cavalry unit, if they keep running towards opposing units. I find the MoS to be more useful. Since they are immune to panic, let alone fear and terror, elves spend a good amount of shooting on these units. Arm them with flails, and really see your opponent sweat! ( ei. Wiping out whole units of flail wielding horsemen, which don't panic, will be tough for the opposing missile units ).
Chaos hounds are good choice. A cheap missile screen, units of 5 or 6, is all you need. You should at least have two units in any point force.
Let us not forget about the chaos spawn, eh? Unbreakable and tough, this horror will easily rampage through those weedy elves! Mages taste good, btw.
A unit of CWs, with the MoN, should be your army's center. That -1 to hit ( for shooting ), comes in handy with large units. I enjoy loads of armor, so I always arm them with hand weapon/shield. At least take a musician and standard bearer.
You can safely stick a Khorne Hero, on a jugger, in a 1000pt force. Though, Id lose the Chaos Runesword until a higher point force. A Sword of Battle ( +1A ) is just fine for me. Of course, we cannot let Khorne have all the fun, eh? A hero with the MoT, on a Dics of Tzeentch, has alot of uses. Mostly taking out war machines and lone characters, though he can take out a full rank as well.
I'd take a lvl 2 sorcerer, with the MoT, and the Third Eye of Tzeentch ( DG )/ dispel scroll. You can still bring along the 2 DSs, but using your opponent's spells against him, has its own rewards.
Knights are a whole other manner. Either use the MoN ( -1 in shooting and CC phases ) with the Banner of Fury, or give them the MoT and the Blasted Standard. Both ideas will pretty much survive the shooting phase well, long enough to get into CC. Give them their full command ( the only unit besides Chosen with a useful Champion ), and keep their ensorcelled weapons. I rather have the +1str every CC round, then having a +2str when ( and if ) I charge.
As for units of marauders, they are pretty good. I'd equip them with hand weapon, light armor, shield, full command, and MoK. Make the unit 20 - 30 models, and slap a Hero of Khorne in there ( not your general ). They will have the staying-power to last til the end of the game.
In the ways of tactics, I have this...
1.Missile troops - Use your hounds/spawn/horsemen. Both as screens and to run them down ( a horsemen ability to reroll their pursuit distance ).
2. COKs - Again, use your hounds/spawn/horsemen, though spawn are better equipped for this role. Then flank charge using your knights, or other killy unit.
3. Magic - a) If she is a loner, feel free to run her down with hounds,spawn,horsemen. b) If she is within a unit, take care of it as you always would. ( headlong charge with a flanking unit to break rank bonuses ). You could also use a sorcerer with MoT, with either 2 DSs, or the Third Eye of Tzeentch and a DSs. Nothing would tick off your opponent more, than his/her own spells being used against them. A hero with the MoT, on a Disc, also makes a great mage killer.
4. Leaders - Nothing is more bas-ass than a Khorney on a jugger. My confidence is more than enough reason , to have such a hero, charge head-long into the enemy lines. Only to be rewarded ( by Khorne? ), for my blind loyalty. Rarely is my hero un-horsed ( or should that be un-juggered? ), and many a break test I cause. A hero with a MoT, on a Disc, also fills an important role. As chaos, there are no missile troops, but we do have our hunter-killer. Armed with a Sword of Battle , the Enchanted Shield, and a "flying" mount, he can easily despatch most war machine crews and missile units ( though 4T models can be a pain ).
I'd keep the CWs and Marauders, side by side, as the army's heart or "anvil". Have all the "fast" troops running down one side of the field. Your hounds/spawn/horsemen will begin their "screening" or "speed bump" actions, then flank with your knights. By the time the CWs/marauders makes it to the opposing battleline, they should only have the survivors to despatch.
Hopefully, you have gleaned something useful, from my long ramblings...
May Khorne guide your blades.
Thanks for taking the time to post that - lots of useful thoughts in there. Repped!
If the spell that wrecked your maruaders is the spell im thinking of it's called black horror, and thers no Str to the attack. Its the large blast template you do partials and then thers a Str test or a T test. (cant rember wich off the top of my head) There is still a panic test involved if you loose a guy but could have made the difference between taking wounds on 3+ and taking a wound on a 4+.
Also in a game this small you could have swaped out the khorne on a Jugg and gone with a lvl sorc with power familiar, dispell scroll, and conjoined if you have the points. You may have also considered that since you had the 2 core units of maruaders filling up your manditory then drop the horsemen for a couple units of 5 warhounds.
A large part of the problem with the list was that I was limited by the models I had available - I used everything I own apart from one Hero on foot.
I have a 1,000 point and 2,000 point army list thread in the Army Lists forum which are a bit more idealised - if you could find time to comment on them, that would be absolutely wonderful.
Also, at such a small points level, should I really be worrying about taking any special choices? The're so expensive it gives me so little room for picking other models!
Woah huge replies! Maleopener has given quite a bit of advice, so I'll try to add what I can.
I had a similar experience and really struggled against Dark elves at 1500pts, so I can imagine its probably worse at 1000. I think the marauder base for the army is probably a good idea, as has been said chaos is generally quite expensive to run efficiently. The other thing is that sitting in the corner with a warshrine wouldn't make a fun game for you or your opponent. And generally if you just sit still you'll be out-manoeuvred.
I think the idea should be to make a reasonable list that you can advance with. The first thing to do is create the base. Probably 2 units of marauders. 19-25 in size I would say, for full ranks. The mark of Khorne probably isn't worth it. It isn't adding to your defense, its reducing your control of the unit, you don't have many points, and they're only strength 3 so it won't add that much hitting power anyway. Slaanesh was suggested for the marauder horse but could be used for the marauders too to stop them running away. Ever.
Spawn are great for flank guarding, but I don't think you should put them anywhere near the Cold One Knights who are lead by a character. Hatred and lances on a unit like that is just stupidly good... There's no way the spawn will come out of that alive. However, hounds are a great idea. Position the hounds right in front of the COKs (1" away or so). The COKs will have to align with the hounds when they charge them and this way you can misdirect them - make them head away from your main force, and the knights will be forced to overrun due to hatred.
In terms of other support units, I'd try the marauder horse cheaper than you have, although I think you probably figured out that frenzy was a bit risky. Anyway the mark of Khorne is probably a bit expensive. So arm them with flails or something, and don't take a standard - only a musician. They're really just a distraction/ misdirection unit so don't be too worried about them being well equipped.
The other thing I'd be tempted to add is chariots. No-one has mentioned them yet, but charge 2 of them into a unit of elves and the unit will get slaughtered. They're tough, have large charge distances and are great support for your infantry. Then again knights have been mentioned so its probably worth picking one or the other, as having both would cost too much. Personally I reckon chariots are pretty nasty and definitely worth at least trying out as a replacement for the knights.
I think a lot of the hero options were covered, however I reckon juggernauts are a bit too expensive. So maybe consider a barded chaos steed. I'd say characters are down to personal preference, but keep in mind an exalted champion can really add some killing power to your units of marauders. Then again, 2 sorcerers could be fun and maleopener listed plenty of combos.
Sorry for such a huge post but if you're just starting up I figured you might be happy with heaps of advice.
Edit: On the question of special choices, I think the army could really benefit from some hard hitting units. Special units are a good way to add more punch to the army and at 1000 pts it's more than reasonable to add one or two special and maybe a rare unit if they complement your army.
Last edited by Viewmaster; November 17th, 2008 at 10:39.
If I could rep you twice I would, but you're going to have to settle for a measly +1, which is the least your post deserves!
Absolutely top response. The reason I used Khorne is that Khorne originally drew me to Chaos (however, for more on this, see my recently opened thread "Called To See The Headmaster"!) and I wanted to try the mark out. I wasn't massively impressed. I didn't really notice any tactical problems but that's largely because the game was so little: he had nothing to bait with and his charge was bigger than mine anyway, so he just hit me where he wanted. In the two instances where I actually managed to hit things, I did awesome damage - I managed to destroy 20 Spearmen and 20 Corsairs with 5 Marauder Horsemen and maybe 10 Marauders respectively.
Another reason for putting Khorne on the Horsemen is that I'd actually added both shield and light armour to the unit - this stopped them being light cavalry but made them a bit tougher. I was fully intending to just use them to hit units as hard as possible. Khorne seemed like it would help.
Again, thanks a lot for your response. I'll go look into the possibility of putting some specials/rares into my army now, though I really don't know how I'll do it.
Yesterday I fought a DE army which came to a very very close call.
Exalted Hero MoK
Sorcerer on disc MoT
20 Marauders Mok
20 Warriors MoN
5 Cold one Knights
2 reaper bolt throwers
My warriors shone in this battle, frenzied due to the banner of rage and extra hand weapons they chopped their way through. With my Hero joining the rank he was spared from reaper bolt death. His 2 dice of magic resistance from the collar of khorne helped his unit from DE spells like word of pain and whatnot. Even after being flanked by the cold one knights and the spearmen, my poor unit of warriors survived long enough to tear everything apart. In the end, it was 10 marauders, the exalted hero vs two reaper bolt throwers. Both attacks rolled up a 1 against the charging hero who had just defeated the sorceress in a duel, let me tell you, STR 7 is nice. 1 from the Axe of Khorne and 1 from the eye of the gods table. So I would say add a sorcerer and get a unit of warriors. I was heavily outnumbered but it was fun seeing them go at it, toe to toe. Hope this helps.
Last edited by DravenHavok; November 18th, 2008 at 03:36.