Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I just got hauled into Tzeentch's office, big time. He sat me down, looked solicitously at me over his great, big beak and asked me why I kept on insisting I was a fan of Khorne, or Nurgle, when in fact I was clearly destined to follow the Great Sorcerer and Bringer of Change.
I kind of shuffled my feet and looked down at the ground and said something like "-1 to hit for ranged attacks? Frenzy?". Well, Tzeentch just laughed.
"Frenzy?" he crowed. "Frenzy is pathetic. It's rubbish. It limits your tactical options and just as soon as you lose combat, the benefit is lost. You increase the cost of units by requiring shielding to stop them running around hacking at anything that moves. Forget it."
"-1 to hit for ranged attacks? -1WS?" He peered at me, looking deep into the very depths of my soul. "Statistically speaking, what exactly is the difference between -1 to hit and a +1 ward save?" I couldn't answer. I thought about saying something involving enemy units suddenly finding it impossible to hit me at all, then actually considered how often that's going to happen. "And as for -1WS! Well, that might increase your chances of parrying a hit, but, again, it's not statistically any different to the ward save when it makes any difference at all. The big win for Nurgle," he suggested, "is that you are more likely to hit your opponent; not that your opponent is less likely to hit you."
"And finally, of course," he added, a glint in his eye, "is the fact that both Nurgle and Khorne are more expensive marks. Those points could be spent elsewhere!"
I didn't know what to say. The Changer of Ways has me ensnared. Can anyone see a way out of this for me?
Nope, I think that you are pretty well stuck with you changer...
What are your thoughts? Which do you think is the most effective mark? Which do you think is the most efficient?
Do you mix marks, or tend to run with one mark predominantly?
ok I never played chaos in fantasy, when i played them in 40k i used nurgle. I have recently watched closely to a couple games of fantasy where chaos have been used, I really love the knight models, and the person I watched ran nurgle, and completely crushed his opponents in all three games (high elves, dwarves, and empire) however I do think that the ward save that you get from tzeentch is very nice, really I think that a nice mix of the two would be quite nice, use tzeentch as your defense and use knights with the mark of nurgle to utterly crush what opposes you... I wish I had more knowledge to help you out with... perhaps I can get you some better info by the end of the day.
Also I really think that tzeentch and nurgle are probably the best marks, However I do love khorne just for what it is, When I ran mine I stuck with just one mark.
As it goes for which is best really they all have their places and it should really depend on which one you are going to like theming your army around the most.
Last edited by Thyhadras; November 17th, 2008 at 12:36.
Funny you should say that, actually: my 2,000 point list is almost entirely Tzeentch, with the exception of my Knights, who are Nurgle!
flipping sweet, not even playing the game and I know my stuff hehe
ahh but that is the best part... is that you can't be proven wrong since it is mostly opinion based... I mean hell I think that orcs (40k) are unbeateable right now (but that is only my opinion because I cant beat the broken bastards) so really since you can't really say that some ones opinion is wrong I think we are in the clear lol
For what it's worth, the -1 to hit vs the 6+ ward against shooting, I believe the -1 to hit generally works better in your favor. Take a bolt thrower against chaos knights.
If they are hitting on a 4+, that gives them a 50% chance of tagging you and an 83% chance of wounding for a 42% chance for a kill. The 6+ ward save means that that has another 83% chance of going through, for a total of 35% chance for a kill.
If you have a -1 to hit, that is a 5+ to hit, which leaves you at 33% to hit, still 83% chance of wounding for a total of ~28% chance of a wound.
This is only one example, but the point is, it's not the same. The worse their chance to hit, the better the -1 to hit becomes, so if they are hitting on 5's or 6's, it is an even better deal. Of course that means the ward save becomes better vs things that hit almost all the time, or, obviously, things that autohit.
Which one is better in CC is a much more complicated variable, as you said, due to the fact that the -1WS can give you an offensive advantage. With our hardy armor saves and multiple attacks, hitting on 3's can make a big difference.
All that said, you're right, MoT is not that much better or worse than MoN, in my eyes, and if you want to go Tzeentch, go for it.
The MoT is, of course, better against Stone Throwers, Cannons, Hellblasters and the like.
Another thing to keep in mind is the EoTG - it may happen only rarely, but I once had a 10-man unit of Tzeentch Chosen roll 12 on the table. There are no words to describe how hysterically awesome a 3+ ward save on a unit is.
Another difference is in combat - The MoT gives a fairly stable bonus, while the MoN only helps out in two circumstances - if your opponent has the same WS as you, or 1 WS higher. However, these two circumstances are not rare and it does provide a superior benefit under them.