Welcome to Librarium Online!
Nope, I'm a new Chaos player so it doesn't bother me
No, I never had Beasts or Daemon in my old Chaos army
Yes, I am having problems with the new list but I can compensate easily
Yes I'm having BIG problems and will have to sell and buy models to make the new list work
Yes, the new list has wrecked by army and I don't want to update my Army Book
So the new Chaos Army book is here and from what I gather, over the last six or so pages or so of posts, is that people are very happy with it.
I for one am not.
My chaos army has been totally disrupted by the new book and as a result I'll not be upgrading to the new edition of Chaos.
Don't get me wrong, if I was brand spanking new to Chaos then I'd be over the moon, fear causing chaos knights, free eye of the god upgrades when I kill enemy characters, it's all gravey!
Unless you embraced the heart of the old book and as a result got the shaft.
The heart of the old army was the idea of the warband, that's why we could have daemons and beasts as special and rare.
Finally we had access to troops that could deal with forest skirimishers and goblins fanatics. We had a whole new opening in our tactics to allow us flyers to attack enemy warmachines. No longer did chaos just march forwards in line, now we could lay ambushes (Gor skirmishers) and sow fear into the heart of the enemy (Screamers of Tzeentch) or send expendable berserker shock troops into the heart of the enemy to disrupt their lines (Minotaurs)
We also had, at our heart, a loyalty to ONE God, a theme based around the idea that your general lead and everyone else followed his worship of ONE of the big four.
As a result my army became BIG. I allowed myself the option of swapping my Special and Rare for Beats and Daemons as well as having a good core of Marauders and Warriors.
Everything was good, my Tzeentch army had no sorcerer models in it, every character (beast characters included) was a champion model with the Mark of Tzeentch. I had two units of Gors and some Minotaurs. Daemonic support was given in the form of a unit of Horrors and Screamers along with a Daemon Prince and a Greater Daemon.
It truely was a gibbering horde of mutated evil.
And then Army Book: Daemons arrived. At first I thought it was a joke book, designed to push the sales of the new plastic daemon models. It seemed to come out of the blue and totally fly in the face of all fluff, after all who ever heard of a army of NOTHING but daemons?
My Chaos army worked fine without it so I ignored it thinking that it would peeter out much like Ogre Kingdoms.
Boy was I wrong.
Now I've seen the new Warriors of Chaos book I'm a bit sad. GW encouraged us all to meld mortal, daemon and beast and now they've shafted us.
Okay you can still have Trolls, Ogres and Dragon Ogres in your army but they've stripped the book of it's feeling.
I have a friend who is a Khorne player and, true to the fluff, he has no wizards in his army and relies on his character and unit generated dispell dice to protect him from magic. Now that's all gone he is furious he will have to break fluff to give him a fighting chance to survive the magic phase.
My own army has expensive models in it that cannot be used in the new list.
GW did a good job with the other upgraded army books. They may have included new models but their was nothing in your army that you couldn't still use, even if it swapped from troops to special or from specia to core.
In the case of Chaos they have overturned the entire concept of the old list and as a result destroyed some long time players armies for no reason.
If I was new to Chaos then I wouldn't have a problem, but I'm not and I embraced the old book whole heartedly and as a result have suffered. I'm just glade that I didn't go for that all mounted/chariot army that I was thinking about.
Has anyone else been left behind by the new list?
I can't be alone.
(just one man's opinion)
Well, generally speaking, the new warriors' army book cannot mean anything reasonable to anyone who knows some background fluff; moreover, it dramatically changed the playstyle of chaos mortals armies.
In particular the free mix of marks, magic items, heroes and units destroyed the fundamental concept of the conflict between gods and the jealous attitude they have towards their servants. By removing the undivided mark, this nonsense was complete.
Khorne and Tzeentch are devastated by this rules, both practically and fluff-wise.
Khorne will never accept a sorcerer in his army, not even for anti-magic purposes; and Tzentch rewards his champions with both strength and knowledge. These were fundamental peculiarities of these gods; and they've been wiped out.
Add to this the fact that tzeentch PD spam lists or khorne DD spam lists were not so cheesy (imo they were far too unbalanced to work) and you come to the conclusion that this big alteration in marks is not justifiable.
Aside from this general considerations, there are some critical points in the new book, like the lack of skirmishers, the nonsense about fear causing units (if knights cause fear, why don't chosen, forsaken, heroes cause it?) the lack of flyers, the lack of chosen knights (why shouldn't a chosen have his pet? i would even consider a whole unit on deamonic mounts for fluff).
Anyway, some good things were done, mostly noticeable:
they lowered the base cost of marauders that was 1 point higher than other ws4 i4 Ld7 infantries;
we finally have chaos armour and 2 attacks on chaos warriors;
khornate frenzy finally affects the mounts;
So to draw a sum, we just need to accept that WoC is not the new chaos mortals, but something completely different - or stick to the old rules.
It's better, it's shiny, it's warped...it's Chaos.
That's a good one, the new chaos book doesn't mean anything reasonable. It's chaos, It doesn't have to make sense. My only gripe is the loss of power dice from Mark of tzeentch. I never used beasts or daemons. You are not prohibited from running an all khorne/slannesh/Nurgle/ Tzeentch army. If people want to mix fine, if they wish to take sorcerers in a army led by a khorne general, it's their business. myself, I ran a tzzentch sorcerer lord and a khorne hero. The khorne hero died in close combat, so it worked out for the best.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
My Sorcerer can now wear a Collar of Khorne, how did that happen?
Aside from some blandness, I like it. It is chaosy, and all I ask for is a good piece of Chaos in my life. And oh, I am a new Chaos player. Though I owned some Chaos models and books ages ago, like back in 1999. Never played though, since I was a little kid.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Went with the top-most option because I didn't have as much time to enjoy the HoC army.
Needless to say, I'm impressed with the current WoC book and the direction Chaos is going in.
Besides, three armies that can be mixed about was a bit much; sure it was fun to do back then, but being able to make use of various other choices to compensate for a major weakness isn't really balance.
Single-god armies are still possible, they're just going to funtion differently from what they used to back then. Mixing and matching the marks, and the Eye of the Gods that enables Chaos Characters -- chosen included -- is just the icing on the cake (seriously, who doesn't like characters that grow stronger with every character they overcome? or being able to put someone like Festus in a regiment of Tzeentch Chaos Warriors bearing the Blasted Standard?).
But, to say that WoC got the shaft is just blabbing nonsense. The marks got cheaper (some got better), we got a few sweet new units to use, plenty new magic items, and have the Will of Chaos and Eye of the Gods rules.
Ironically, it turns out I was right that there would still be people that will whine and piss about what they see as an insult to their pride. Seriously, kids, don't worry about it; it's not like the Apocalypse came to life on you.
I think you missed the original poster's point. He agreed with you that overall the army was better. Most people agree with that statement. However, those hobbyists who chose to use multiple chaos forces are screwed. For the game mechanics, it makes perfect sense to split the armies up as you mensioned, but to the gamers it's crap. It's not so simple as people not getting to 'compensate for major weaknesses'. This is a lot of money, time, and energy that people spent. Some people don't have two-hudred dollars to throw away to make up for all their special and rare choices. They've been given no option besides spending twice as much money to get two armies, which is a cheap marketing stunt. Do they intend to do this to 40k as well? Will there no longer be inquisitorial allies? Maybe, but now IG player can leave their best painted, customized, and flavorful inquisitor and retinue unit at home.
And please don't say that other members are blabbing nonsense, whining, or pissing. It's bad form, and I for one thought Squig69 made some reasonable complaints. I'd be upset too.
EDIT: I also fail to see the irony Nakkai.
Last edited by daelrog; December 7th, 2008 at 07:26.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
i started WoC just before demons...
bought a unit of warriors and maruaders and was thinking about some beasts when
i realy like this new book and i dont think i could find many things wrong with it...
but i do feel for those gamers who spent quite substantial amounts of money on Greater demons, Tuskor charriots, Mintours and other exspencive units...
but you got to see that the BoC book means that practicly all beast units are core...
have a beast herd and a tuskor charriot? buy a bray shaman and you got the begginings of a army.
even if you build it into only 500pts its still quite flavourfull in 2500+ games to include 500pts of beasts i also think players are less likely to care at higher points levels especialy if you still require a hero and two core...
click>the warhammer world needs you!<click
If someone helps you REP them...
But can't you mix and match some elements from all the books in a single Chaos army? I was distinctly under that impression when I read in the BoC Army Book. It would be silly if there would be no more lesser daemons at all in the same army as Mortals right? It just does not seem like how it should be.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Sorry Victor, that's the whole crux of my post, you can't mix and match anymore.
WoC and DoC aren't compatible anymore and I see no reason that, when they update it, GW will make BoC compatible.
As daelrog rightfully said I've spent time, money and energy on putting together a horde army only to find that I can't use the elements in it together anymore.
In order to have my BoC and DoC models a viable army on the table, sorry TWO viable armies, I will have to go out and buy in excess of £200 worth of models, if not more.
After all I'm a Tzeentch player and it's not like we got cheap plastic daemons.
GW has seen a market for making money. Why have two army books with interchangable units, when you can make people buy THREE armies if they want to use all their Chaos models?
To be honest I'm almost jealous of the new players, at least they have the opportunity to have a new book and tailor an army to it, instead of having whole units of models they can't use anymore.
As I said, the new army book is great, but some people (like myself) have been hurt by it.