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Well I got totally anihilated last night by a super heavy magic daemons list! I think half my army was gone by the start of my turn two.
I could not believe the amount of spells and power dice. Spells that generated extra power dice just kept coming too! Not sure if there is anything in the WOC army book that could take this list on, as we have no shooting, and our magic can not compete. Besides every unit causes fear, most have 4+ ward save, and are un breakable! If you have any suggestions, I am all ears.
Heres a break down of his list, from memory.
Kairos who knows 12 spells from both Tzeentch and all the lores, has +4 to cast (I think) and 6 power dice. Oh can Fly aswell, causes terror.
3 units of 15 Horrors of Tzeentch all with Heralds, and some vortex item that gave an extra PD per unit. So 12 power dice from these units, I think they had some casting bonuses aswell. Flickering fire of Tzeentch, just burned through my units
10 Flesh Hounds of Korne. These guys mopped up the dregs of my army, and kept his horrors out of combat.
2 units of 8 Flamers of Tzeentch holding each Flank. 8 D6 strength 4 hits, from a skirmish unit, that has 360 degrees is insane! Average number of shots is 28, try and flank charge that!
My Chaos Knights couldn't move after the horses were targeted by some lore spell. Wouldn't have mattered anyway, next turn bolt of change with 10 strength 9 hits wiped them out. They didn't even get to move!
Well slight rant there, but seriously if you have any suggestions on a list that could match up please let me know. I am fairly new to WOC, but it has gotta be the worst defeat in the history of Warhammer! I lost everything, and only killed 4 horrors, a herald, and some other lowly magic characters, because I was forced to challenge with my Lord.
Righty then. Let's get cracking. *puts on his goggles*
You NEED the infernal puppet and black tongue combo. It in itself could probably turn the tide. It is that good.
Pure Tzeentch daemons is superb
Minor query, are you sure they were 8-strong flamer units? Don't have my rulebook at hand but I'm pretty sure they're 3-6 in a unit.
And Kairos is 'only' +2 to cast. And he only generates as many dice as a normal level 4 wizard.
As for how to beat the list... units with magic resistance will put some pressure on the magic, but once your dispel dice are gone the army is pretty much free to cast spells on themselves... Boon of Tzeentch for +d3+1 power dice will give enough dice to chomp through your magic resistance. Really, the best way is to engage them in combat as soon as possible... horrors are pretty crappy in combat, and tend to poof when they lose it.
Really, your lack of shooting will always make magic lists difficult to beat. But if you can find some way to engage in combat, do so. The removal of furies from the list will make this more difficult, but light cavalry could prove a pain, or maybe a Tzeentch lord on a disc, if they still can take those.
Just be thankful he didn't have the Changeling, and challenge with that... then, you wouldn't even have killed a herald (can switch S, T, I, A, Ws with any model in base contact. Basically, Van Horstmann's speculum... although the changeling WAS the one who gave VH that particular item, so that makes sense)
Indeed, Kairos is only +2 to cast and Flamers can only be 6 strong at most.
The Infernal Puppet and Black Tongue would ruin this list, one good miscast on Kairos and it's game over.
Flesh Hounds are mean, but will lose to a fully ranked up unit. Hit them with Knights and laugh.
Horrors suck in combat, even Marauders can send them packing.
A WoC army with Marks of Slaanesh everywhere will negate his Fear causing, a caddy with the Puppet and a fighty character with the Black Tongue, maybe Valkia to take care of Kairos and take plenty of Warriors, ranked up Marauders, and Knights.
Block the really scary spells and wait for him to fail a casting roll with Kairos or miscast. One the puppet sends him into oblivion all you need to do is mop up.
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Fair enough, he must have been placing the armies 2 generated power dice to his pool. But he did use the boon of Tzeentch, to keep more power dice coming, from multiple spell castors.And Kairos is 'only' +2 to cast. And he only generates as many dice as a normal level 4 wizard.Probably only six then, I am not that experienced in fantasy, and it was my first time against daemons. My thought was an all cav list, or maybe even trying Vilitch. With the ability to rob power dice, and dispel dice, could be a way to bolster magic. Maybe used in conjunction with the infernal puppet and black tongue combo as suggested by Archnomad. So what kind of WOC army composition work? Something unorthodox, like dragons?Minor query, are you sure they were 8-strong flamer units? Don't have my rulebook at hand but I'm pretty sure they're 3-6 in a unitCheers thanks for the suggestion. The flamers of Tzeentch really pack a punch, and hold the flanks well. So going for the 'negate by combat approach' going up the middle, full steam to get to those horrors could work. Probably should deploy 2 inches back from my line to prevent being in range first turn from his 18 inch shooters and spells. The 2000 point list I was running had 2 maurader blocks of 24, 2 warrior blocks of 12, chaos knights, maurauder horseman, dog screens, and archaon. I know, I shouldn't take him, but I was play testing. I would like to see if taking Valkia, and other heroes will get the job done. There was just so many spells being cast, that it felt like nothing could get through, regardless of what I included.A WoC army with Marks of Slaanesh everywhere will negate his Fear causing, a caddy with the Puppet and a fighty character with the Black Tongue, maybe Valkia to take care of Kairos and take plenty of Warriors, ranked up Marauders, and Knights.
Last edited by mercenary; December 24th, 2008 at 01:00.
Oh, and I feel i should tell you that your opponent was taking one of the cheesiest army builds going around at the moment, so don't feel to bad. There's a reason that this more-or-less exact list fills up over a third of all UK GT armies (no, not Daemon armies, Kairos + 3 herals + flamers etc. army's)
I dunno what sort of list you took, but you can either up the cheese and take a silly list too, or just not play against armies like that.
Also, Horrors can't generate extra dice through items. They have access to 2 banners - either +1 to cast or a bound spell that only works in combat (2d6 s3 hits I think).
Flamers hate mark of Nurgle too - having shooting based on Ballistic skill. And they'll be at WS1 in combat too. Hit them with ANYTHING that can have this mark, and preferably double team them, so they can only stand and shoot against 1 target. Marauder horsemen and Chariots come to mind.
Hmm, seems he hasn't taken any Heralds either. Got access to any templates? Hellcannon, Dragon, Magic (you'd need lots though...) - something to cause massed damage, because a 5+ ward won't save them all (I learnt that the hard way when my Bloodletters faced off against a Scraplauncher...) EDIT: Oops, they all have Heralds..well, at least the units aren't too big, and so stilla ren't all that great in CC...
Which then brings me to, that Dragon? Maybe this guy would help against a list like this, chuck on the Collar of Khorne to keep away Magic, and go Hunting
Last edited by timk1111; December 24th, 2008 at 12:02.
2 units of frenzied cavalry , one khornate and the other with banner of rage. Put an exalted or sorceror in each unit, onbe with fury of the blood god and the other with collar of khorne. Screen these knights with hounds or horsemen.
Use horsemen and hounds to lead the daemonic hounds away by angling and fleeing then send your knights into his horror units. You should get a 2nd turn charge. During the magic phase only kairos should have line of sight as he is a large target and thats when you use black tongue.
Knights should be ok against flamers as they still get a 2+ armour save and the flamers need 4s to wound. As timk1111 stated, MoN would work well here.
Black tongue and infernal puppet Kairos, you can hope to end the magic phase or remove the model. Im sure someone more competant could calculate the odds of either of these results.
Take scrolls as the daemon player is sure to take spirit of the forge for melting on the knights.
If this fails call the daemon player a cheese monger and refuse to play him until he uses Ogre Kingdoms. He is using a very horrible list that I find robs the game of fun.
Or else play him in a scenario where his magic and requirement for LoS won't work that well... Such as heavy woods, ruins etc. Shooting will not have much impact, so teh flamers will be reduced to a supporting role, and magic missiles can't be cast through walls!
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You could try Tzeentch magic heavy. Ive used magic heavy Tz and pandemonium will ruin any caster heavy army's day.
How many points did you play? 2000 or 2250?
Distendable maw on your Lord would be amusing on his initiative 3 heralds but very hit and miss, at least he wont get his 4+ ward though!
Last edited by Kich; December 24th, 2008 at 12:01.