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This isn't a fluff question, this is a game balance question.
Our author seems to think that our advantage in combat and above average magic (and that's being generous... have you seen both elf armies, lizards, daemons, and VC in action?) compensates for our lack of other viable options. No shooting. No skirmishers. No scouts/infiltrators (that aren't special characters). No flying march blockers (that aren't heroes). A very pedestrian magic item list, core movement score, and Ld score. An all-too-often redundant army-wide rule. A hero rule whose drawbacks outweigh its benefits. A special list that can be rewritten into Elite Infantry, Crap, Hammer Hammer Hammer Stupid Hammer Hammer. A rare list very easily mistaken for vomit on paper.
A few things shine, sure. The list isn't ALL bad. Knights are good as usual, as are ogres, and spawns are decent, if not a bit random. Warriors and chosen rock. But a few decent units don't win games, especially when they all fulfill the same army tactical slots.
Meanwhile, I find myself in uncomfortably close combats with DE ASF-banner Blackguards, HE ward-save-buffed Lion Banner Swordmasters, and Lizardmen chaos warri... ahem, I meant Temple Guard.
I usually lose games I play now. I've played in 6th and won back then, so it's not me. I also looooove the L2Play argument, but believe me, it's not the case.
I just seem to tie combat as a whole throughout the battle, with the opponent's superior magic/shooting/positioning capability/leadership/any combination thereof tipping the scales. I've tried many different army builds and combos. Hell, I even pulled out a Throgg list in joking desperation in my last game.
In other words, why are so many lists just as good as us in combat AND in challenges (our superior hero statline is more than compensated for by our opponents' much better magic items), when we're supposed to be the supreme combatants? And if we're not supposed to be the supreme combatants, where is all the extra crap in our book that I find in so many others?
Why does our list suck? More importantly, where does the author live? And the playtesters?
Last edited by BrockSamson; March 30th, 2009 at 10:47. Reason: clarification
I would much rather know where the ****ers live who wrote the other books, pardon my french.
Could you post a example list they you used, preferably also with what you faced?
I think your arguments are a bit overreacted, haven't you seen the DP lists that dominated and dominated the grand tournaments?
Sure, I could do without the mandatory challenge, or have the EOTG work when you slay a champion. But chaos has always done without shooting, (I should mention we have just figured out that we can catapult summoned exalted heroes, using 2 spells, that kind of compensates).
But I don't play to win, if I wanted to win with chaos (like all the time) I'd field a DP, 3 casters and 40 knights.
Our book is just fine.
In my book we are the best at CC AND we are the absolute armored power. Plus, we also are mainly T4 and S4. That's got to compensate for the lack of... shooting.
Did I mention the Hellcannon, the S5 stonethrower, that babysit himself AND has a real threat range of 12 inches?
Our list is just fine.
"How do you stop a Chaos Knight from charging? No seriously, HELP!" André le Bouffon, jester of the Bretonnian court - last words.
Indeed, I to think warriors are alot weaker than the other new books.
We can't compete with daemons, (almost nobody can) and vampires, dark elves lizardmen etc, all got a bit of that "overpower" mixxed in there list.
Ok were supposed to have superiour combat power. We do! Warriors are fantastic, marauders are great for there points, knights rock, dragon ogres/ogres etc, all pretty nice statlines.. though.. it's hard to get a nicely balanced list on the table. If you use those fantastic warriors or chosen, than be happy.. with the 2-3 blocks you can put up.. Our characters easely go in 1K, and then try to fill your core with those nice warriors.. na-ah..
I found that there are some good lists, though it almost immediately recuires you to push in a LVL 4 sorc or daemon, with supporting spellcasters. And what if you don't want this?
Combat and magic? Ok. Problem here is that when you pick magic, almost half your army will be dragged in this direction. Your magic list is now very vulnerable to shooting, combat and the rest.. Other way around, go for combat.. you get outmagiced, outmanouverd or shot down.
If only the points would lower on several units/heros, i think the book would be MUCH better and way easier to play. There isn't enough balance in the book. There are a few options for a list setup but there's alot less variaty than the other books. I hope beast of chaos will do better
Last edited by DavidWC09; March 31st, 2009 at 03:17. Reason: Let's avoid that particular word. :)
Our biggest flaw is that we make one of the mediocre lores of magic into the next best thing since sliced bread. If you can take lore of fire against someone you can expect to do some damage. If you take lore of metal against us instead you can expect massive amounts of damage.
Beyond that, I do like our book. Our magic items sort of suck, but no ones stopping you from just taking the chaos runesword and runeshield. Those are great items that work well together and make our lord almost unkillable.
If you say only warriors/chosen/knights/spawns are good, then just make a list that has only those guys. Don't even take a lord, take 2 caddies 2 exalteds then a buttload of chosen and knights and throw in 4 spawns. Can't be that bad of a list.
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Our list doesnt suck. But a good Warriors of Chaos list doesnt play itself. It still require alot of skill to use, as do all elite lists. We simply cannot afford to lose our knight, Lords and sorcerers. As for missile? We have our Horsemen with Throwing Axes and we have the Hell cannon and the Exalted Hero Flinger. Giving our army archers or other good missile weapons would be to overpower it immensely. We don't need missile weapons, we need to learn how to play the army to it's full extent.
The only choices in our army that are bad in my book are:
All other choices can be awesome if used right. Those who get beaten using a Warriors of Chaos list get outplayed, they're not in possession of a worse list. The book give you all the tools to help you win.
The List can be made fun to play with weird and strange creatures, it can be made fluffy with lots of background connections and it can e extremely competitive and cheesy.No poop-oop-a-doop Sherlock. Chaos isnt supposed to be easy to play. It's an expensive powerhouse that is very vulnerable. It does, however, win tournaments. But then it's used by a competent player. Some lists forgive mistakes - chaos doesnt.If only the points would lower on several units/heros, i think the book would be MUCH better and way easier to play.
Last edited by DavidWC09; March 31st, 2009 at 03:19. Reason: Better word choice please. :)
"The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"
What i meant was, some races get terrible monsters for almost nothing. A hydra is 175 points orso, and has 7 hatred str 5 attaccks with regeneration? I mean come on! Our shaggoth costs 265 "nude" and can't do half a hydra can. A steamtank for 300 points, unbreakable 10 wounds T6??
We miss things like this. :'(
The main snag comes when you run into the min / maxer lists of other armies. The power growth of special and rare troops for most armies has grown quite a bit with 7th edition it seems.
With chaos you seem to have more of a "do it yourself" type army....you will have no fancy banners or overpowered army-wide special rules that help out (like Hatred or Always Strike First), you are going to have to do it all with what you bring.
Shooting, yeah...fluff-wise we are probably even lucky to have the hellcannon. I don't mind that too much, even though I don't like the newer version as much as the one we were allowed to use with the last book.
The biggest weaknesses that I see are: lack of decent leadership outside of 2 special characters (both of whom, while tough are quite expensive and each have their drawbacks), lack of a way to generate many extra power or any extra dispel dice and lastly, eye of the gods is a horrid rule against certain armies.
Out of those 3 problems, the lowish leadership...which is basically just average, but from the battle hardened warriors of the north I'd expect a little better, has been the biggest breaker. With expensive points cost outside of marauders, we have always had trouble generating static combat res.....you can do it but it comes at a terrible price and a huge loss in effective killing power.
Magic seems to pretty much be down to either nurgle-spam magic, with a lvl 4 who tries to pull off gateways. A properly magic-defense based opponent can probably shut you down pretty good, unless all your eggs are in the magic basket, and even then....a handful of dispell scrolls can shut down your gateways pretty fast.
My regular opponent is High Elves, which I don't see as being a good matchup for Chaos, neither would demons, dark elves, VC...nor lizards I suspect (surprise, all new armies and very common out there).
Low leadership really hurts when you run into a block of 24 spearmen who never charge, so they can attack in 3 ranks, have a hero with a great-weapon and carry a banner that gives them +d6 combat resolution. Their hero will still be wounding on 2's, while striking first, along with all the rest....any casualty you take will be a lost spot on the front-line that won't fight back. The rest of the army is usually white lions and sword-masters.....yay for ASF great-weapon troops.
I absolutely HATE eye of the gods, you almost have to run casters solo if your opponent knows you play WoC, else they are basically free points in a challenge with a hero who has a great weapon. I lost both a mage and a bsb with the banner of the gods to a bare bones high elf hero who had a great weapon....a free 440ish points for him in 2 turns for the measly cost of about 100 points.
They made our heros challenge, but gave us nothing special for challenges.....chaos players should at least negate the special rules of opponents in a challenge, or strike first in a challenge or something.....
The "stacking issue" of special rules and magical items and such is getting a bit rough with some armies too. Woodswalking White Lions who always strike first with great weapons, have a unit banner that gives immunity to fear and terror, and a bsb with them that makes them immune to magic......thats a lot of special rule stacking that tends to build these "Death Stars" or "Mini-Death Stars". We really don't have much in retun, and when most of the "death stars" are close combat orientated, they have us by the short hairs. If we don't march into close combat, we lose...its as simple as that and everyone knows it.
Despite trying to stay away from Special Characters in my lists, I'm down to fielding either Sigvald (with his stupidity...what other lord has stupidity?) or Valika as a general and then stacking the rest of the deck with a BSB with Banner of the Gods and fill the rest with mages....
I'd say any of the older 6th edition armies are still pretty good matchups for us, but it looks like they wanted to stagnate the power of Chaos a bit, so we will probably end up with a middle of the road-ish army once all the updates are out, if we are lucky.
I do agree though, having owned all the other new 7th edition books, and then reading ours...you can tell they aren't on par. Maybe it was intended to be that way, and hopefully it was, because that is how it ended up.
Wow. I never expected to see this in the Warrior of Chaos page.
Is it just frustration that WoC didn't get the HE or DoC treatment?
I've read the book, and I'm pleased to see that while you may think it's underpowered, I think it's in line with a lot of the 6ed books in not being so grossely broken that the minute someone breaks out their WoC army, it's not predetermined that they'll win.
Also, if you're having a tough time with ASF High Elves, bring chariots.
You seem to be facing alot of cheese. I don't think highelves are cheesy plus the HE death stars that were mentioned costed a huge amount. My answer would be to ram lord on juggernaut with 10 knights. They both cost about the same and guess who will win? ^ s6 attacks from the wl, after hitting your high weapon skill and getting through your armour save you will still beat up the t3 5+ armoursave crap out of them
Daemonic cheese-how? Well, you would need to start with daemonic milk, i guess...