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Instead of clogging up this thread, I'll make a new one:
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...efinement.html (Magic Heavy 2250 - Needs some refinement.)
This was the point brought up:A Demon Prince might not have the armor save of the sorcerer lord, but he has T5 and 4 wounds, compared to T4 and 3 wounds. He also has 5 WS8 Str5 attacks at I7 and causes terror. And a tzeentch demon prince has a 4+ ward save. All of this combines into a deceptively good defense. Let's not forget his 3+ ward vs wounds caused by spells. And those 5 attacks and terror both combine to really boost his offensive ability over that of a sorcerer.A demon prince costs too much and has a much lower defense than a sorceror lord. The only better thing that a demon prince gets over a sorceror lord is the re roll to avoid miscasts, however that can be fixed for the sorceror with the infernal puppet.
Now, I just don't get why people think infernal puppet is just as good as tendrils. Its no where close. Let's say both of these guys miscast. You use the infernal puppet to change your miscast to hurt you less. I change my 1 die and 5/6 of the time roll out of the miscast with a good chance of the spell then going off and possibly even irresistably.
Let's not forget that tendrils gives magic defense as well. Rerolling dispel dice is just as effective.
Since they both fly, you can argue they are both equally easy to not get killed. Everyone I've talked to that uses a demon prince has said that 9 out of 10 times the guy just doesn't die (ive never had the guy die and only once got halved). I've personally had him as my last model on the table and won. That's on average 555 points your opponent won't get.
Other stray thoughts. You can't keep using the arguement you have a better chance to get your spells with a sorcerer and that infernal puppet saves you from miscasting, because you can't take both on him. If we throw in support casters with the infernal puppet, then your sorc lord loses one of its 2 advantages over a demon prince. The other being cost (but again his cost is an asset).
However, I'd like to hear your guys' arguements. Maybe I'm missing something.
I agree with you entirly here Pinkus its a Demon Prince for me everytime at 2000-2250 points.
The main arguement seems to be that the Demon prince has less defense and it is this arguement that i dont understand. A DP has 1T and 1W more than a sorcerer lord basic and a garenteed ward save which the sorcerer lord doesnt get basic. When you start to equip these guy you can give your lord a wardsave (not always gonna be as good as 4+) and/or Regen. At the same time the Demon Prince gets a 4+ ward (MoT) and a 3+ against spells.
I can see how the Sorcerer Lord has more defense if you have him sat inside a block as he will be protected but you put him on a Disc and he loses this bonus. The Demon Prince and Sorcerer Lord are equal in their ability to fly, thanks to the Demon Prince not being a large target.
Also the Demon Prince causes terror which in itself is a great defensive ability, meaning there is that chance that anyone set up to charge the prince will fail a terror test and flee instead.
With the Fury of the Blood God the Demon Prince also gains magic resistance 2 which the sorcerer lord can also gain.
In my list i run a Demon Prince with Tendrils and a supporting mage with Infernal Puppet, i dont see why you wouldnt in a magic heavy list. AS Pinkus stated infernal puppet is now where near as good as Tendrils, with tendrils you have the chance to avoid all damage from a miscast by avoiding the miscast itself where as puppet you just lessen the damage your sorcer lord takes. There have been at least 3 occasions when i have used tendrils to turn a miscast in to a irresistable force on Infernal Gateway, which to be honest is about the only way the spell gets off most of the time, people quickly learn that the spell can be horrendous. (ill apologise for my spell now, theres flaming sun in England and as a typical Enligsh man its killing me)
The sorcerer lord can take the spell familiar which gives him that extra chance of getting Gateway but then that is your arcane item taken, with a sorcerer lord id rather have Blood of Tzeentch, Skull Katan or Power Familiar so that he stands the chance of getting the more expensive spells off. Even with rolling for 5 spells there is the slim chance you wont get Gateway.
The tzeentch lore is not soley focused on getting Infernal Gateway off, if it isnt rolled you still have Flickering Fire, Pandaemonium, Treasons and Transmorgification to cast all of which can cause enough hastle to make not having Gateway worth it.
I was half tempted to ignore this as tbh in something like 8 games now my Demon Prince has not got in to combat but there is always the chance ill mess up and he will end up in combat, so here we go.
Compareing the sorcerer lord and the demon prince its is obvious that in combat the demon prince is better basic, however you can suit up a sorcerer lord to have a magic weapon and armour but if your going to make him combat efficent why not just take a basic Lord?
I wasnt sure where to put this point but as pinkus has said when played well a 555 point Demon Prince doesnt die it barely takes a wound. So that is around 1/4 of your points cost secure along with denying the 100 points for killing the General, so over all you have not given your opponent 655 points. With a Sorcer Lord you are looking at around 400 points then 100 for the General, so you are only denying 500ish points with this.
I dont know if any of that made sense, its the heat were just not built for it, but i would disagree that the Demon Prince isnt as good as a Sorcerer Lord or worth the points, yes he is expensive (nearing that of a DoC greater Demon) but he is a great point denial.
On subject, yes, the DP is in an whole other class. He'll do what Sorcerer Lord can do, and then some.
And if he doesn't get IF, Treason, Pandaemonum and Flickering Fire every turn will do good job too.
"How do you stop a Chaos Knight from charging? No seriously, HELP!" André le Bouffon, jester of the Bretonnian court - last words.
Sorc lord has better survivability toss on enchanted shield and golden eye and he has a +1 armor save and a +3 ward save against shooting/magic missiles but neither of these guys are really ever going to die unless you are getting wiped out so I feel this argument is void.
Puppet would of course be on a supporting caster but this item would benefit the sorc lord much more and honestly miscasting with him is really overrated and if this is a downside to you taking him don't let it worry you. Puppet is so good because not only does it protect yourself it also gives you the ability to devastate the opposing player especially since it synergizes so well with pandaemonium.
I still don't like the whole denying points argument since the difference in points is >150 which you can use to actually make your army less suck.
Tzeentch is a pretty terrible lore overall banking on 3 spells flickering, pandaemonium, and gateway. The fact that I can cast all 3 of these spells with the sorc lord with an actual chance at rolling all 3 of them at the start within 1 turn hands down gives him the advantage over the DP.
If you are the DP you can say you can cast other spells if you dont roll gateway but what if you are against an army that has almost no magic? You are left with call to glory(which neither of us can even use), transmogrification(now that would be true desperation), and treason(which rarely has ever done more than 1 wound every time i have casted). So you are flying around with a guy who can cast flickering fire and cause terror that the majority of the tough competition is hardly even phased by.
So you tell me, would you take your extra 150 point denial over someone who is more efficient at doing what he should be doing, casting. I mean look that is enough points(10 short) right there for a level 2 sorc on a disc that you can fly around with him throwing more flickering fires. There is your point denial with efficient casting right there.
I have tried the DP but I can just never justify spending that amount of points if I am looking to min/max an army.
Gateway is just such a huge mind fu to the other person he has to decide whether he wants to dispell the little flickering fires(which you want to be casted this is your bread and butter) or save it for the big spell that can obliterate his army. So meanwhile your supporting casters are generally going to get off the majority of their spells if your opponent knows you have the threat of gateway. If you do not get this your bread and butter spells get dispelled with no remorse and your magic may as well not be there in replace for the cheesness that is scroll caddies.
Last edited by kyuzo; June 3rd, 2009 at 16:12.
You would have the same problem with a sorcerer lord of Tzeentch as well but he wont cause terror. And tbh those spells arent bad they are just focused on certain armies (or at least do the most damage against them) which is a problem with all the lores in the WoC book.If you are the DP you can say you can cast other spells if you dont roll gateway but what if you are against an army that has almost no magic? You are left with call to glory(which neither of us can even use), transmogrification(now that would be true desperation), and treason(which rarely has ever done more than 1 wound every time i have casted). So you are flying around with a guy who can cast flickering fire and cause terror that the majority of the tough competition is hardly even phased by.I was on about the Collar of Khorne which will give him MR 2 and 6+ Ward.Don't forget that Fury forbids the use of Magic items. Not something you want to do with a Sorcerer Lord.
I think the problem people have with the Demon Prince is his points cost but when he doesnt die i dont see this as a problem. Its like VC's Running grave guard with BSB and Regen Banner with a casting lord in the unit. Its a huge points cost but its a unit that very rarely dies.
Treason of tzeentch it nasty. You could easily wipe out a third of a unit. Look at white lions. block of 18, 9 hits, 7-8 wounds. I'll take that from a 9+ spell.
Call to glory is cheesable too. Charge with marauders, turn one into a champion, kill some models and then end the spell before he died.
I'd rather have MR2 and a 3+ ward every wounds done by spells then no MR and a 3+ ward missilies. Specially when I already have a 4+ against missiles.
They're close, I'll give you that. But unlike others, I like to use my guy in combat too. Not risky combat, just where I want another 2 combat res.
If you really need the MR2 and more of a ward save you can always equip collar of khorne but it isnt neccesary. If the opposition is in a situation where they can solely focus on your lord and you have nothing else to combat it then you are already in a dire situation. Pandaemonium and a scroll is enough magic defense with your dice to pretty much shut out the majority of the opposing players magic phase and the armor save is much better against shooting. I can see a good roll of a shooting phase(not to mention an assassin would pretty much spell doom for him) being able to injure the DP over the lord any day.
To play the devils advocate I think I might also have to say I would rather use the sorc lord to rear charge over the DP for the sole fact that I actually have an armor save.
Being able to cast gateway, flickering, and pandaemonium in one phase with him alone is enough to put him above the DP imo. I have yet to see any real argument that makes the DP look great so I am really interested in hearing more.
You would have to be lucky to cast all three in one phase from a lord or demon prince. You get 4 dice basic say one for power familiar and 2 from the army dice. So that lets you cast Infernal gateway on 5 and say Pnadaemonium on 2, unless you take power stones and the such you will be struggleing to find the power dice. I wouldnt risk casting Infernal Gateway on less than 5 dice as the avrage will 20 and if your not irresistable forceing that spell people are gonna use a heck alot of dice to dispell, also 4 dice avrage of 16 +1 for MoT. Too risky for a spell i want to succeed in casting every turn.Being able to cast gateway, flickering, and pandaemonium in one phase with him alone is enough to put him above the DP imo.
5 for gateway, 1 for flickering, 1+power stone for pandaemonium.
So the only thing the DP is really missing is being able to cast Pandemonium, then again what if you want to cast some of the Level 2's high cost spells? that will take out one of the army dice at least.
To me niether the DP or the Sorc Lord have any huge advantages over each other and it comes down to personal preference.