Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Okay, I'm well known for running demon princes over sorc lords, but this army list got me thinking:
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...50-points.html (Warriors of Chaos 2250 points)
With infernal puppet you'll never kill yourself if you miscast, unless you only have 1 wound left. For this discussion I'm going to assume we're a tzeentch lvl4 wizard with a 5+ ward save.
So if you end up with a 3-4 result you take a str6 hit(since you're a loner no models around you will take hits). Wounding on a 2 and saving 1/3 of those means you take a wound 55% of the time. Not bad; not good neither, but not bad.
Result of a 5-6 is probably the worst situation if your opponent has nasty spells. If not, then this is the best situation. I might argue moving down to a 3-4 would be better if your opponent has game changing spells.
A 7 could be good or bad, if its your last spell, then the 11% chance to wound yourself is ideal. If its your first spell, this could be bad. Always use your sorcerer's dice first, so if you have to take this result for whatever reason your support sorcerers get the 3 pool dice to play with.
You CAN get results of 8-9(wound yourself 1/3 of the time) and 10(wound yourself 55% of the time), but I can never see taking a 7 being worse than any of those results.
Now by limiting ourselves to those options, we eliminate 3 options from ever having to be taken.
Ending the magic phase and take a str4 hit. This would be a good option, but str 4 hit wounds too often. Ending a magic phase when you're done with spells doesn't affect you sometimes though. However, losing this option means we hurt ourselves less often.
Taking a str8 hit and losing a magic level just sucks ass. Losing this option is actually a big bonus for us.
Losing the spell, but it going off irresitably can be good or can be bad. On turn 5 or 6, getting a spell off with IF could win games. The fact you never have to take this option with the puppet makes this usualy only taken when you want it to go off though. Losing this option could be seen as a somewhat bad thing.
What do we gain? Another spell. Why my view has changed is I've always used this on lvl2s to get fireball. But we're talking on a lvl4. A lvl 4 that with the right setup could have access to 8 dice, not counting power stones(enchanted shield, powerstone, spell familiar, book of secrets, collar of khorne = 100 pts). You can offset the wounds you're taking with stealsoul, or get wall of fire. Its very random, but getting a 4-5-6 from fire are all very nice to have, heck I'd argue 1-3-4-5-6 from fire compliments a lvl4 wizard very nicely.
Why are we so afraid of putting book of secrets on our lords? The lower miscast table, while be modified by the infernal puppet, is actually not that nasty at all. There's only like a 7.5% chance you'll be stuck with a 3-4 result and with a 5+ ward save that will only wound you 55% of the time. You'll never blow yourself up neither. If you're playing someone with only magic defence then the chance to just take a 5-6 result is perfect.
Without the infernal pupper, then please don't take the book of secrets. But with the puppet I say go and have fun with your sorcerer lord. 5 dice from him and 3 pool dice, while knowing 6 spells. That is just gross.
If you never miscast with this guy, all the better.
Last edited by Pinkus; July 16th, 2009 at 17:21.
This is an excelent idea and acctually had me swaying my opinion against the DP a little. But I looked at the FaQ and it states that the caster casts with the book of secrets as if he were a level one wizard, and that would mean only two dice which makes all the big spells not too good to get. Here is the exert.Q. Is a model with the Book of Secrets
considered a Wizard? If so, how many dice
can he use to cast a spell?A. Yes, he counts as a Wizard. He can use up toa Level 1 Wizard.
two dice to cast a spell in the same manner as
Does this only apply if you are giving the book to a non-wizard? Or is it a blanket rule with the BoS?
I don't know about it though, I am a bit on the fence about it, would be sold more so if there was a way to get a few more power dice each phase.
It's Adventure Time!
2010 'Ardboyz Champion
It makes sense to let him cast with his level four ability, but I wonder if that rule is put into place to stop this from happening. I mean a level four lord can have 8 dice at his disposal. 5 for Gateway and 3 for wall of fire or pit of shades. Seems kind of unfair to have the ability to cast two big #6 spells like that PER TURN. Of course its gonna take some luck to get the #6 spell with one dice. If this is possible, I would be very tempted to create a list for this right now though.
Glad my list got you thinking. Personally I see nothing that should stop sorcerer from still casting as a lvl 4, though I do find it odd that the book is not limited to non casters, as this is most often the case with these kind of items.
I am most likely gonna test out this Sorcerer Lord this weekend, and will let you know how it turns out.
My thinking with the BoS is that it allows who ever you give it to to have one extra random spell and one extra dice to cast if you are a caster and if not then you count as a lvl 1. Effectivly its a a cheat Spell familiar and Power Familiar mix.
I have always used the book with a level 2 with a power familiar in order to get a second high level sorc in 2250 games but i can see the book working better on a sorcerer lord, especially a nurgle or slaanesh lord as we all need those flaming attacks to stop regen. And even flaming sword would work ok on the sorcerer lord if you rolled it, if hes on a disc then you can start throwing him at flanks near the end of the game.
I definatly wouldnt take the book of secrets on anyone with out the Infernal Puppet, that item is one of the best in the WoC book and makes its points back easily, last game i played first turn my friends HE Sorc Lord miscast and with some help he got sucked in to the warp.
The model count as a lvl1 wizard. But that doesn't mean he doesn't count as a lvl 4 wizard either! So no worries.
"How do you stop a Chaos Knight from charging? No seriously, HELP!" André le Bouffon, jester of the Bretonnian court - last words.
The only problem i see is if that supporting wizard with the Infernal Puppet dies, especially if it is early on in the game.
A nice summary Pinkus but I still wouldn't want to put it on a Sorcerer Lord since there is quite a few WoC armies out there which are likely to have the puppet as well to so it still seems quite a risk. I prefer the idea of having it on someone who won't miscast like an Exalted of Tzeentch who can 1 dice fireball or dark hand of death on a 3+ or a level 1 Tzeentch Sorcerer who can 1 dice them along with flickering fire without risk of miscast.
BEN DIESEL FTW!!!
I guess the question for me now is, for the purposes of the spell received through the Book of Secrets, no matter what you're actual wizard level is, you maybe only act like a level 1 wizard for that spell.
I think the beauty of this item is you can become a machinegun wizard. 3 die whatever spell you get from fire, 2 die flickering fire and then 3 die pandemonium. Very low chance of miscasting doing that.
Or better yet, go unmarked(crazy I know) and pick lore of fire. That way you can 3 die fiery blast, 2 die fireball and 3 die whatever book spell you get. Imagine getting fiery blast twice. Thats 5D6 worth of str 4 hits you could pump out. All at a very high chance of successfully casting. That's almost as good as the 6th edition slann machinegun. Problem is you lose flying then.
Now all we need is to come up with a cool name for this build, ala "cruise missile" or "scroll buggy".
Something cheesy like, Harry Potter, or The Dumbledore Build.
Disclaimer: Not a harry potter fan, just trying to stay away from LotR references.