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So afer playing a couple of games with a tzeentch level 4 sorcerer and i realized that the Tzeentch lore isn't quite what one calls da bomb and the only reason why we play tzeentch is because of gateway. However, gateway is very, very random and very very costy. The majority of times it will not go off, get dispelled or worse be miscasted. One might argue that an infernal puppet might fix it but the reality would be that the spell would not have worked and you would have wasted a magic phase.
For this reason i set out looking for an alternative to the Tzeentch socerer and came up with the idea of making a Nurgle level 4. The Nurgle lore is more destructive than the tzeentch one and all the spells cost less to go off. There are spells like curse of the leper which resemble gateway's best feature (i.e that of removing the whole unit from the game) and also highly destructive spells like Rot glorious Rot.
Now the thing which a tzeentch sorcerer would have better would be the flying feature. Thats why i think that a Nurgle DP would be the best choice (even though it is more expensive point wise)
The idea is of having a level 4 nurgle deamon
equipped with fury of the blood god (for magic protection)
and either mantle of chaos or Tendrils of Tzeentch.
Having a level 4 and 3 level 2's marked nurgle would mean having an army of character snipers making the dispelling more difficult for the opponent.
I will try the Nurgle Dp soon , but in the mean time i would like to know what you think of a NURGLE CENTERED magic phase.
Last edited by DraagDarkfire; June 23rd, 2009 at 20:48.
Sounds good to me. I'm just a little scared of the shooting armies I tend to face (WE, DE, HE and skink heavy LM). I'd take the Mantle and FuryotBG. With Nurgle's lower casting cost you culd prob get away without Tendrils of Tzeentch.
I think that a Nurgle-centric magic phase is grossly underrated. It has pros and definite cons though:
Some spells will be harder to cast, due to losing the +1. You do lose the discs on your heroes, and the +1 to ward saves is really handy on the Demon Prince...as well as with certain items.
Though, you get a MUCH more reliable lore in return, as well as better sniping ability. You do probably need the puppet even more as you are going to be two dicing at Buboes, and the like, increasing miscast potential.
Not sure if I am sold on the Demon Prince, with only a 5+ ward though...
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Thanks for the quick reply. The reason i thought of DP is because of flying and even though you do lose a +1 ward you would become harder to hit.
To give major protection i think that the mantle is an extremely good item, making HE Bows and DE crossbows practically inefficient against the demon's toughness.
To replace the +1 to cast i believe that sorcerers should be equipped differently from how we equip them now, maybe with a skull of katam or conjoined Homunculs, even though BoS, Power familiar and Rod of torment remain in the centre of attention.
What really is worrying is the cost of the Heroes which will be higher than that of a tzeentch lineup because of the mark's cost!
Could you suggest some builds for a nurgle magic phase line up?
I gotta agree with Tzeentch having a lot of holes. Flickering is nice but its only one magic missile, Pandemonium is only good against heavy magic armies, treason is extremely situation, baleful and call are both awful imo.
Tzeentch is a one spell lore for the most part. It can be scrolled, it will cause miscasts, and it can end up being weak (I casted it from an enemy's miscast last weak and got Str 2. woohoo) But you just need one good gateway to turn the tide of a game. After an entire game of dispells and miscasts, gateway has blasted massive units to open the game up in the last two turns for me. All it takes is one big spell with 8+ hits at 7+ str to destroy a strong unit.
My goal isnt to bring down your idea though. I love your idea and I really want to hear how the setup works for you. I custom did my Tzeentch lord though so Im gonna stick with him for a while. Otherwise Id be inclined to try it.
Flickering fire is an extremely dominant spell, and the opponents usually twist their head and let you cast it. Nurgle really only has buboes, the rest of the spells are situational and not really spectacular. Everything can be done from the level 2s that need to be really. So while nurgle has buboes to snipe characters, tzeentch has flickering to clear units. Mix n match is better in my opinion, but it may be really fun to piss off some people with all those buboes like VC.
The main reason why i am thinking of going nurgle is the fiinal spell in the lore Rot glorious Rot.
The spell gives d6 str d6 hits no armor saves to all enemies within 18 of the caster. Than can wreak havoc, causing a lot of panic tests and taking out a great number of models. I would really like to cast it against orcs or empire.
As for the mag missiles i totally agree with flickering but again it is random and it has limited range. To give missiles to my sorcerers i am thinking of going with
Level 2 BoS - lore of Fire or Death
Level 2 Rod of torment
And a unit with banner of wrath.
What do you think?
Well, I'm starting to get the tendency to field MoN army, as I play against dwarves and Tomb kings a lot, the -1 to hit is a god send. As for a total nurgle magic phase, I have a list planned, with a Sorcerer Lord, and 2 Sorcerers. Sorcerer Lord on a Chaos steed in with the inevitable knights. Then two other sorcerers, one with Infernal Pupper and a Book of Secrets, and another with a dispel scroll.
The lord has a power and spell fam. and the regeneration crown (might get rid of this for something else, perhaps Gold. Eye of Tzeentch, or Skull of Katam)
So yeh, I'm testing the list out on Friday, as I'm relatively new to Warriors of Chaos, I'm not exactly the best general hehe. But neither is my opponent . I'll try and post the list up later.
Im loving the idea, out of all of the chaos lores i reckon its the best even if thats only because of its pure destructive capability. Magnificent buboes is the perfect character sniper, fleshy abundance makes you live, plagues squall is good for killing those hoardlike armies especially whaen combined with curse o the leper and cloying quagmire breaks those pesky pesky heavily armour foes. As before, curse of the leper is brilliant for weakening the enemy for any reason, although i doubt you'll acually pull of the killing through magics effect, and rot glorious rot, my personal favourite, breaks everything within 18" which is great for large armoured armies, small armoured armies, mounted characters on thier own and horrible beasties that try to rear or flank charge you.
I reckon your best bet is a lvl 4 sorcerer on horseback, with knights, and 3 lvl 2 sorcerers in units of warriors, all with marl of nurlge so that you're hit less.
I's then give the lvl 4 conjoined homunculus, power familiar and bloodskull pendant, and spread the infernal puppet, skull of katam,dispell scrolls and prehaps a spell familiar among the lvl 2's.
But be warned, you lack the major combat abilites of the chaos lords or exalted heroes, which you should defintatly include if you plan to expand the list further.
Ive been thinking about this topic quite a bit today and Im really trying to look at the pros and cons of running a nurgle level 4. If you are running a level 4 I dont think anyone will disagree with the statement that MoN is by far better to put on your level 2 support caster(s).
So the main controversy is which lore for the level 4 guy.
I think Nurgle is more of a utility lore whereas Tzeentch is more of an I want to burn your face destruction lore.
Both level one spells are equal Imo. They just serve different roles. Since you will have 1-3 support MoN guys, you should have bubboes already and you shouldnt be begging for it on your level four. No lore has a real advantage on the default spell imo.
Nurgle has two good support spells. Fleshy abundance can be great to make a warrior unit that much tougher so they can hold against multiple units. And Leper can weaken the right unit so you can destroy a unit that would normally be rather tough.
The only real support spell in Tzeentch is pandemonium. Its great against heavy magic lists (especially if you run a puppet) but is rather bad in most other cases.
Treason and Quagmire are both extremely situational damage spells. You are gonna have to target a unit designed specifically to do damage with these spells.
Now for the other damage spells. I dont have to talk about gateway you all know what that does. Now for Nurgle. Plague squall is nice but you have to guess range, it can easily scatter away,and is only good against high armor units or highly concentrated areas which will still require luck. And now for Glorius Rot. It has decent range but is only worth the cast value if you get multiple units (except if you are hitting some big knights maybe). Its a good spell but I see it being hard for a Nurgle lord to position for this spell well consistently on a steed.
The lores are rather close depending on your play style. Nurgle is more reliable and supportive while Tzeentch is more risky and destructive. But lores arent the only thing that should be looked at. Going Nurgle on your lord is going to bring disadvantages. First off as mentioned you wont get +1 to cast. And having to use a steed instead of a disk can be huge too. A disk Lord with Golden Eye of Tzeentch can be anywhere and is a great point denial character. He can fly around, piss off your opponent, and will never be caught in combat or be limited in where he can go for the most part. A nugle lord on a steed wont be able to go where he wants as easily or consistently. He can be chased easier which can make you run and put him where you dont want him. He can be tough to shoot down if you give him Golden eye as well, but fast cav and flyer units will have a much easier time getting to him than a Flying lord imo. I just love the mobility the disk gives. Enemies absolutely hate my disk guy because he can fly behind his line with that big F$#! You gateway gun and he cant do a thing about it. All this is assuming you arent using a DP of course though. Imo the DP is needed if you want a level 4 nurgle caster. You gotta spend the extra points for him though.
Well that took a while to type and its kinda long. Sorry. Hopefully yall think its helpful.