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I was looking at ways of doing lots and lots of nice, yummy damage to enemy armies and am coming to the same idea as many other people seem to be - go magic heavy or go home.
The Daemon Princes have been confusing me a little and I was wondering how they might best work with a really strong army command group, designed to augment the Daemon Prince's abilities.
Here's what I came up with:Daemon PrinceMy thoughts are as follows:
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Upgrade to Level 4
- Tendrils of Tzeentch
- Diabolic Splendour
- Mark of Nurgle
- Upgrade to level 2
- Power Familiar
- Book of Secrets
- Mark of Nurgle
- Upgrade to level 2
- Skull of Katam
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Doom Totem
The Daemon Prince himself carries a basic ward save. He can also be a caster. So the Daemon Prince is complimented doubly by Tzeentch - it confers an improved ward save and a greater casting ability.
The Tendrils of Tzeentch Gift of the Gods is one of only two upgrades which can only be taken by Daemon Princes. The other increases durability; as our Daemon Prince is now a caster, the Tendrils of Tzeentch is a more useful Gift. Especially when four-dicing spells (as we aim to); the chances of miscasting practically vanishes - you have to roll three ones on your four dice to miscast.
Diabolic Splendour improves the Daemon Prince's useful Terror ability, by making it harder for opponents to pass their leadership checks. The fact that the Daemon Prince can fly makes it a nasty threat for the enemy's rear.
The two Nurgle sorcerers are intended to make use of the Magnificent Buboes spell that we all know and (mostly) love. Two shots of Magnificent Buboes, cast on two dice with the Skull of Katam will get the spells off more than comfortably, eating up either enemies' dispel dice or enemies' Battle Standard Bearers.
The Power Familiar provides an extra power die to the pool, to be used by the Daemon Prince.
The Book of Secrets gives the bearer access to the first spell in the Lore of Shadows, which allows us potential access to the Exalted Cannon gameplay.
The Battle Standard Bearer's main role is to provide an additional modifier to enemies' leadership rolls. This augments the Daemon Prince's Terror ability in addition to the Diabolic Splendour.
The game plan for the army is rather simple. The Daemon Prince will roll for spells. Hopefully Pandemonium and Call to Glory will come up; if not, it doesn't matter particularly. Both Nurgle Sorcerers will default to Magnifcent Buboes and take their luck with whatever other spell comes up; who knows? It might be useful. The Sorcerer wielding the Book of Secrets will also take the Steed of Shadows spell.
The army will set up with the Sorcerer wielding the Book of Katam in the middle of the three casters, with the other two within 3". The Battle Standard Bearer will position himself such that as many of the enemies' units can see him as possible.
The Daemon Prince and Nurgle Sorcerers will begin the magic phase by two-dice sniping with Magnificent Buboes at the appropriate targets and using spells such as Baleful Transmogrification, Treason of Tzeentch and the infamous Infernal Gateway. These are to use up dispel dice and scrolls. The Daemon Prince must ensure to retain at least two - and ideally three - power dice to cast Pandemonium if the spell has been rolled. (The average score on four dice is fourteen. As Infernal Gateway is cast on 15+, and the Daemon Prince benefits from both the Mark of Tzeentch and the Book of Katam, the average roll on four dice will be sufficient to cast the spell. This leaves three dice for Pandemonium.) The Daemon Prince will end the magic phase by casting Pandemonium - only if the enemy Battle Standard Bearer has been killed.
Once the enemy's Battle Standard Bearer has been killed and Pandemonium has been cast, the Daemon Prince launches himself into the centre of the enemy line in his following movement phase. The enemy army will take a number of terror tests, on their own leadership, with a modifier of -2, with no rerolls available and flee directly away from the Daemon Prince, into other units of the army, which will suffer subsequent panic tests on their own leadership with a -2 modifier. (This could conceivably be used in conjunction with flanking units to wipe out fleeing enemy units.)
Having caused as much terror as is possible, the magic phase will allow more character sniping from the Nurgle Sorcerers and general damage from the Daemon Prince. Instead of using Pandemonium the Daemon Prince can now use Call to Glory, if the spell has been rolled - the Nurgle Sorcerer with the Book of Secrets can use the Exalted Cannon gameplay to shoot the Exalted Hero into combat to help or protect the Daemon Prince.
Obviously this is situational, in so much as it requires the spells to be rolled and it requires the enemy's army not to be Immune to Panic. But, then, no plan is going to beat all comers. So far as it goes, what do you guys think of this idea?
Tzeentch magic is the biggest let down the WoC book has. Its a really bad lore overall. I can see the psychology bomb doing well but not all armies are vulnerable to psychology. If you are competitive tourny player you will get laughed at by VC. A slannesh DP would make more sense if you want to psych bomb an army.
This whole idea looks really great on paper but this is half your army. If this strategy doesnt work you are going to lose.
Imo magic is too unreliable and we dont have good enough magic items or strong enough lores or lore selection to run magic alongside the other magic armies. If you want a psych army I would say ditch the magic and get two hellcannons.
Taking a good look at your setup Im goin to tell you a number of your theories wont work. The exalted cannon is a gift to your opponent. Spend 3-4 dice on call to glory, then Ill dispell the little spell and I effectively stopped 5-6 of your power dice.
Pandemonium wont make it through the enemies magic phase. No one in their right mind will cast with that thing up. At best its just a tradeoff spell. You spend 2-3 PD on it and force your opponent to use 3 of his PD to get rid of it.
Even with a modifier baleful is not going to be that great. Its an awful spell for its casting value.
Im going to reiterate that half of your army is characters. You will be out manuvered, and it isnt going to be tough to decide what to shoot at against you. If you lose one of those nurgle sorcerers, your magic phase is toast. And one problem with big expensive banners is the law of gold and vuals unmaking spells. That makes banners go poof. And two of the most popular armies can run those lores with wicked magic items to boot. You have a lot of DD but trust me protecting a nice banner against lore of metal is impossible. If the banner isnt getting destroyed the guy holding it is going to get sniped, and if you get rid of that spell get ready to see half his unit disapear from the #6 spell.
Last edited by sdefreit; July 7th, 2009 at 09:15.
With all due respect for sdef, I disagree on almost everything he said.
Lore of tzeentch is great. Flickering fire and pandemonium are both extremely excellent spells. Pande isn't a tradeoff spell, because he has to pass fear and terror checks, as well as rally checks before he gets to his magic phase to dispell it. Then you nerf his magic phase by making him dispel it. All of those are pluses in my book. And gateway, which can be reliably cast, is one nasty damage spell.
The exaltee cannon might suprise an opponent once, but it could work against you later on. However by saving it for your last spells it could allow your previous spells to go through and then you don't even have to use it if he did save dice.
I don't care if half my army is characters. You WON'T get out manuevered if you bring an all cav list to support them and if your magic is strong enough you could force your opponent into coming to you.
The law of gold let's the owner pick an item, so he just picks other items besides the banner and even then it only destroys it half the time. I've never fought someone who would maybe destroy my crappiest magic item instead of going for one of metals nastier damage spells.
But I do agree, top tier armies(vc/demon) won't even care about your -2 leadership terror bombs.
And BSB's don't give rerolls to terror, just break tests, so you don't have to kill the BSB before terror bombing them.
Slannesh might not be bad choice either. The #6 spell could be our best spell, and hellshriek is another way to get units to run away. But if you don't get the #6 spell you really are handcuffing yourself against VC and Demons.
Appreciate the responses, guys. Thanks.
sdefreit, you seem rather scathing which gives me definite pause for thought. You also talk about the Psych Bomb as if it's something that's been discussed before. I haven't been on these forums for over half a year - though I did look through five pages of threads before I opened this one - so if there's more information on this tactic I'd love to read through it.
Is there a generally accepted build for Daemon Princes? I worry that they're too expensive and too fragile to really work very well. I felt their strongest assest might be their flying/terror-causing combination, and was looking for ways to make best use of it.
As I said, I haven't been on the forums for months. What is the current general opinion on characters and army builds? sdefreit, you seem to be rather unconvinced by any of our magic. Are you more of the hard-hitting close-combat train of thought? Presumably, if that's the case, we're talking mostly cavalry - I hate the idea of how long it'll take Warriors and Chosen to get across the battlefield, just to be avoided by everyone except Dwarves. Or has opinion on that changed? I know a while back people seemed to favour cavalry lists as being optimal, or close to.
Pinkus, I read your comments with interest and I always enjoy hearing what you have to say about things. I think sdefreit is saying Pandemonium is a trade-off only in the way I planned to use it; unfortunately the Daemon Prince would have to wait a turn having cast it before he could move into the opponent's army - because units only test for terror once, there wouldn't be any point in charging into his army and causing terror tests before... uh... hang on. I'm wrong. The opponent takes his terror test at the start of his turn, right? So if you move the Daemon Prince into his army at the start of your first turn and cast Pandemonium in your magic phase, then when you opponent comes to hs first turn he has to take the tests? That's a lot nicer than I had first thought.
But you both seem fairly convinced that the Psych Bomb - or perhaps jsy tthis version of it? - wouldn't work against quite a lot of armies. Fair enough. What other tactics are available for using? And, as I asked before, what are the commonly accepted builds for characters these days?
Am I wasting my time painting Marauders and Warriors? Should I be focusing on cavalry? What are people's thoughts?
Sorry for being so utterly vague and wishy-washy with my questions: I know there's no all-comers list to be followed and I'm not wanting a cookie-cutter; I'm just wanting an idea of how best to make my army competitive.
Pinkus, sdefreit, +rep to both of you for your in-depth replies to my post. Thanks a lot!
Terror is useful to guard against being charged, and with items such as the mantle of chaos he will be very resilient indeed.
Standard Build for DP is Mark of Tzeentch, Tendrils, Blessing of the Blood God.
The Blessing gives him extra Defence vs shooting attacks, which is all he should be hit by; you don't want him in combat alone.
The generally accepted purpose of a daemon prince is casting Gateway and 555 points worth of point’s denial. He should not die, if he does, you've done something horribly wrong.
As for a magic heavy list, they are mostly composed, of a DP, a lvl 2 Tz on a Disc, and 2 lvl 2 Nurgles on barded steeds. Amongst the sorcerers you should have Infernal Puppet, Power Familiar and Book of Secrets. It is debatable whether taking 2 Tz and 1 Nur or 1 Tz and 2 Nur is better.
To fill out the army (at this point in a 2K list you've only got about 1000 points to work with) take DOGS, Marauder horsemen, and Knights. 2 slaanesh marked spawn and you're laughing.
The Terror tactics you were discussing aren't as good as you would think, especially cause it will have no effect on VC or Daemons... or TK for that matter, but no one seems to consider them a threat any more.
The DP is a super caster with tendrils and with the added benefit of Infernal Puppet you can freely throw 5 dice at gateway...
And I feel your pain when looking at how slowly our warriors, marauders and chosen move... but boy do the hit hard (marauders not so much) when they finally get there!
Oh, I though I like the idea of the Doom Totem, I think if you're going for a magic heavy list, a fourth caster is def the way to go. more PD, more DD, and a third arcane item.
Mark of Nurgle
Mantle of Chaos
Fury of the Blood God
As you say, it gives some good survivability, I guess. You are a little more vulnerable to Miscasts than I would ideally like, though.
I find myself remaining a little skeptical about the Daemon Prince. I guess the big thing in his favour is the Tendrils of Tzeentch, right?
How viable is an entirely non-magical list? Taking a couple of scroll caddies to prevent being smacked in the face too early by enemy magic, basing the list around extremely fast and hard-hitting cavalry and counting on just mooshing the enemy before they can do anything about it? In fact, if the scroll caddies are Nurgle they can do some nifty sniping as well to justify themselves even more.
With the list you suggest - the four casters - do you think the Daemon Prince is more valuable than a MasterBlaster-type Lord? And why two Tzeentch and two Nurgle? Is there a particular synergy that I shoulud be aware of? Pinkus suggested earlier that Ecstatic Seizures (Slaanesh's sixth spell) might be our most overlooked spell in the game. Why does no-one like Slaanesh Sorcerers?
Surely for 555 you want more from a characters than just firing off Infernal Gateway? Is it really as valuable and powerful as all that?
Ya I was a little spiteful there. It was late and I really have had bad experiences with Tzeentch magic. Gateway is good but requires luck. You need to fight through scrolls, and when I did I always managed to get Str 4 or lower hits. And I kept miscasting which kept hurting my guy over and over.
So my opinion on the lore is biased on my experience but I do still beleive strongly in my thoughts about how effective this strategy will be in tournament settings. 4 of the most popular armies are going to hastle you with this list. Demons and VC wont care, and Lizzy and HE magic with metal will be tough. Sure you can pick the magic item with law of gold but your gonna need him in a unit with a magic standard bearer or one of those sorcerers to protect the banner. This can be done but you will still lose items.
Having an expensive banner does give the enemey another good spell from the metal lore to hit you with. Now there are three threatening spells rather than just the usual two.
Also does the Lizzy cold blooded rule apply to terror checks? If so thats another thing to consider.
Last edited by sdefreit; July 7th, 2009 at 21:07.
After a tournament this weekend I'll be test out this masterblaster build most likely during my weekly gaming night.
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...er-dragon.html (2250: Master Blaster on a Dragon)
If you don't go for the terror bomb, the DP is a extremely valid tournament build. My DP list with the banner of the gods felt like I could win any game against any army. I went 3-2 in a tournament and lost 2 minor loses, once to a slaan who IF-ed spirit of the forge the first 3 turns and still managed only a minor loss. The other was a tactical mistake on my part.