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Tooled Chaos Lord
Tzeentch Demon Prince
Hey guys I am looking for some feedback from yall. There are a number of High Elf players where I am and they love their star dragons. After playing 4 games against it I have come to learn that it is a complete crutch and that its nearly impossible to beat with my all comers list. I can handle his whole army beautifully and even ignore the dragon a while, but I can only ignore it so long and turn 4-6 become point and shoot 2-3 dead bricks of mine.
So Im tired of this and I want to create a list specifically designed to crush these talentless players. Sorry to you HE guys but if you field a model that flies that I cant kill you will hear this from me.
So I have been thinking about tooling up a Chaos lord. I have a few combos that I have thought of, but any builds you guys can point out are sure to be accepted.
Im not looking for this to be a what you give your lord thread though. I have good ideas for combos and there is already a thread that has that. My question is whether I should use a combat lord or a Tzeentch DP. The HE guy will have 700 points tied up into 2 characters. His army will be way to small too run magic along with it imo. A single DP can cast Flickering Fire on one die and Gateway on 5 (Is the dragon immune to fire?) He most likely wont take magic from what I have seen and if he does gateway will still overpoewr him with 5 dice.
So what do you think will be more effective? DP or Combat lord? I will be designing a list to go with this character for this occasion of course but to get me off the ground give me a vote and some input on your preference.
Last edited by sdefreit; July 12th, 2009 at 21:20.
Take a Chaos Lord. Tool him up to the rafters. Mount him on a Dragon. Point him at the pansy High Elf and laugh.
[i]Edit: I think actually putting him on a what's-it might be better. Juggernaught. Perhaps? Much better armour save. Opponent can't choose which of you to target. Stuff.
Actually, I'm looking at it again. I'm not entirely convinced that even a Chaos Lord should be toe-to-toeing with a Star Dragon and Prince. :/ If they're being beardy, can you take Special Characters? *Sniggers*
If you know he's not running magic-heavy, you may well find the DP is your better choice. Dag-nabbit.
Also, if you know for a fact he's not running magic-heavy and you're taking a DP, then for damn sure you should be taking a full magic list. That means three other casters, plus both of our bound spells.
And yes, I would be rather surprised to find the Dragon is not immune to fire. Although, looking into it, ours are not immune to fire. And the Games Workshop site recommends taking Armour of Caledor "making him and his dragon immune to flaming attacks"; so maybe not? Weird.
Last edited by el_don; July 12th, 2009 at 21:32.
Magic is nice but not as reliable as a Chaos Lord against a dragon.
Actually the best way to kill the dragon is to bring your Lord on a dragon also. If not, MoT and Disc are a necessity if you want to engage the dragon (it flies...).
I would gear him up with something like Armour of Morrslieb, Enchanted Shield, Glaive of Putrefaction, Helm of Many Eyes (wild shot here, but LD9 should do the trick) and Word of Agony (against the rider or if the dragon becomes T2). If you don't kill that dragon, you are gonna at least cripple it. S2, T2 hatchling! Yay!
Are the dragons attacks magical?
And you cant couple enchatned shield with any other magic armor pieces. I wanted to while I was looking for a setup, but its not legal
Yep! You are right. Oh well! My basic idea was to use the Glaive of Putrefaction to cripple the dragon.And you cant couple enchatned shield with any other magic armor pieces. I wanted to while I was looking for a setup, but its not legal
None of your fire attacks will be worth anything against the dragon or it's rider as no player would be stupid enough not to take the 3pt upgrade to get dragon armor (protects the guy and the dragon)
Chaos lord on disc would work fine but you'll want to gain some protection yourself. Regen talisman is great because HE have no natural way of getting flaming attacks. I think getting your own dragon is also a mistake. That makes you're army really small and fragile like his. Lord on a disc can take his dragon to task if he has a decent ward and regen and a flail (or sword of might whatever you want) If your guy costs half of his, then you've got plenty of troops to tackle the rest of his army. T4 fear causers do a number on any elves other than white lions and maybe swordmasters.
Yes you could probably out magic him as well, but I think that would leave you the dragon eating up your ranks longer than you wanted.
Problem with the tzeenth DP is that he's expensive, you don't necessarily want him in combat and there's a good chance (1/3) that you won't get Gateway which is the only spell that will really affect the dragonrider.
You have fast cav...a Dragon shouldn't be a hard to beat. Put fast cav 1 inch infront of him repeatedly, he either will charge them in which case you flee the charge he has to go the full 20" so you know exactly where he'll land and flank him with rank infantry. If he doesn't charge rinse and repeat, eventually he'll charge you out of frustration. If he's not in combat who could care less about killing him, he's the better part of 1000 points. If he's got a dragon the 4 bolt throwers are going to be more of a threat to be honest.
But if you're determined to fight him in combat you're are going to need a unit to back you up, you aren't going to do 7 wounds to the dragon and 7 s7 and 4 s5 magical attacks will tell a story even on a chaos lord. Also seeing as he has warmachines and you do not, he's going to dictate where you can put your dragon meaning he's probably going to get the charge and kill your dragon.
Honestly your best bet is bobous x 2 and exalted with flail on disk. To kill the dragon, and and then outnumber fear the lord.
I'm also a HE player (my first army) and I can say from experience that armies without shooting (magic or otherwise) have a good right to be scared of this unit. He can line up his charges as he pleases without any real fear of getting charged himself, unless you're a genius or he's an idiot.
The only recourse I have found is my trusty Tzeentch Lord with the Sword of Change. Sure, it doesn't work all the time but since the Hellfire sword won't have any effect at all, it's just about your only option. Especially with a warshrine giving a +1 attack, strength, or toughness bonus, a lord with the Sword of change can reasonably expect to make the dragon roll 2-3 toughness tests a turn. He'll fail 1/6th of the time, so if you can hold on in combat for a while that dragon will go bye-bye.
There are other factors to charging besides line of sight... There are also other ways to kill or neutralize flyers, especially large ones.
Bobous and a exalted on disk are still your best bet I feel, as both or equiv should be in an all comers WofC list regardless.
Finally some1 who's having the same brainache as me ^^
I've been trying to find a solution to the problem as well and figured our problems:
We need to deny him easy CR (= dont take a dragon, cause the Star Dragon has s7 and will make easy wounds on the chaos dragon, granting him additional CR)
No matter how you tool your lord up, the Star Dragon will outnumber you, giving him a 1pt lead in CR.
If you don't cause a wound that round of combat, you will automatically break cause he causes Terror.
So if you're not counting on taking him out in 1-3 rounds, you have to figure a way to make your character immune to terror, otherwise he's dead.
Making him Slanesh on a boobworn doesn't sound like a bad idea, which will make him fast cav too, denying The Star Dragon easy combat res.
the most fun and perhaps reliable way is to get your Lord on a Disc, and give him Armour of Mosleib, since the dragons attacks are not magical. This will give your lord a 3+ ward save against non-magical attacks (4+ from the armor, +1 from MoT) and most HE players give their Prince on top a halberd, which isnt magical either.
Thats 65 pts left for items. The Glaive of Putrefaction should work quite good, even if your lord dies (you lose approx 330pts) statisticly you have 2/3 chance to get a wound on his Dragon each round, making it worth the pts.
I think I'll go with the Chaos Daemonsword just for the fun of it going all in or all out!
A Nurgle-heavy magic phase could work too. He'll prolly have a single scroll caddy, which should get you 1-3 bubboes in each round = dead dragon in 3 rounds!
This would force him to go into close combat, and then you cast Fleshy Abundance on the unit he's in combat with, making them last a round or two (with a little luck) which should give you time for a flank or rear attack. Bringing the Banner of the Gods would help keeping his dragon accupied along with mark of Slanesh.
Hope it helps... havent found a road to victory against those dragons yet. Hope I'll find it someday