sigvald or valkia

[Undivided]

I don't like special characters normally just cos there uber versions of the actual lord choices.

My friend is running around with a vlad isebela konrad and manfred vampire army. It is one of the gayest things i've seen in a long time (apart from all daemons hero lvl special characters and fateweaver)

There fine in big games cos it adds even more theme to the the battle your fighting. Say if u were playing like a 5000 point game archaon is far more likely yo be there

To answer your question i think sigvald is better as he makes his unit immuneto terrain and makes them stubbon ld10 which is very nice. I actully have a Valkia conversion for a campagin i was in there were lots of forces and everyone was using special characters so it gave each god themed list a bit more feeling. Anyway valkia isn't as hard as she first seems mainly cos she can't break a unit in one turn on her larries. Tbh neither can sigvald but thats not his job.

[geldedgoat]

Id like to see you tell someone with a straight face that teclis is a fair character.

Okay, Teclis is fair. He's got very strong magic but absolutely zero defense. If you want to make a case for him being undercosted, that's fine.

I think most people believe hydras are also very undercosted and unbalanced. By your logic, should we also disallow the use of all monsters? Or all rare choices? I mean, by their very definition, they're rare, so that should mean we shouldn't see them in anything under, oh lemme pull a random number out of the air, 3500 points. Who cares that GW has specifically designated how many can be used for X number of points just like special character lords and heroes?

And the issue about scale of the army. It is generally accepted that a 2000-2250 game is not that large. Trying to throw a comment like that out there is just a bad argument and you trying to find a loophole.

If it's a bad argument then you should have no trouble putting forth a good rebuttal. Anecdotal evidence does not a good rebuttal make.

Where I play special characters are laughed at. They arent legal in our tournies and they will let you use them in pick up games, but will grant you 0 respect if they are part of your static list.

That's how your group likes to play, and that's great for you and your group. But don't mistake your preference for some universal truth about the nature of the game. Special characters don't require special permission from your opponent, and we can only assume that GW has intended them to be used like any other choice in the army book.

They are fun for cool themed battles, but rather childish to take seriously in a list all the time. And who loves playing the guy who uses one of these guys then spends half the battle looking in his book because he doesnt even know his abilities.

I'll try to ignore the "childish" remark because it's exactly what you're accusing others of being. As for the inexperienced gamer who doesn't know his own rules... Are you serious? You're really trying to discount a rather large section of all army books because you played someone who didn't know the rules for his army? Well you know, I once played an Ogre Kingdoms player who didn't the miscast rules for Ogres off the top of his head... I guess Ogres shouldn't be allowed in tournaments or most friendly games, right?

[Undivided]

The issue is that special characters are normal only used to make armies horribly hard to defeat something broken. Fateweaver for example. I've see a 48 unit of chaos warriors led by sigvald its was basicly unbreakable.

The reason people dislike is for that reason

Also where the hell do u play? and who do u play? None of any vets i've ever met have really apporoved of special characters in static lists

Are u a dark elf player by any chance? Hydras are far to cheap for what they do its actully rediculous. Shaggoths are an extra 100 points? and do no where near the same as a hydra does. Also when did monsters come into this? Monsters arn't nearly as broken as some of the special characters they also make each army slightly more indivudual

[geldedgoat]

The issue is that special characters are normal only used to make armies horribly hard to defeat something broken. Fateweaver for example. I've see a 48 unit of chaos warriors led by sigvald its was basicly unbreakable.

The same can be said for any number of units from any number of armies. Just because there's some ass out there who wants to create a broken list with a special character doesn't mean that's the only reason to take a special character, nor does that mean that taking a special character is the only way to create a broken list. That just simply isn't a good reason to dismiss the idea of special characters entirely.

Also where the hell do u play? and who do u play? None of any vets i've ever met have really apporoved of special characters in static lists

Not that it matters, but I play in South Korea currently, and Memphis when I end up going back home (though we no longer have a battle bunker).

Are u a dark elf player by any chance?

Nope, I'm a Chaos player through and through; Word Bearers in 40k (pure, none of that stupid counts-as business) and Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Undivided in fantasy (none of that mixing marks of gods who hate each other).

Hydras are far to cheap for what they do its actully rediculous. Shaggoths are an extra 100 points? and do no where near the same as a hydra does.

I agree hydras are too cheap. That's why I said, "I think most people believe hydras are also very undercosted and unbalanced."

Also when did monsters come into this?

I introduced monsters to show that dismissing the concept of special characters entirely based on one (or a few) examples is a ridiculous idea (sdefreit said Teclis is unfair, so that must mean all special characters are bad; you then did the same thing with Fateweaver and a Sigvald combination).

Simply put, that's a poor argument. In the WoC book alone there are 10 special characters, and I don't know how many are in all the other books combined. You can't dismiss all of these options based on a few extreme examples.

Monsters arn't nearly as broken as some of the special characters they also make each army slightly more indivudual

Special characters don't make each army more individual? Tyrion is only in the High Elf book. Scragg is only in the Ogre Kingdoms book. Vilitch is only in the WoC book. You can't get much more individual than that.

[sdefreit]

Firstly I have to agree the person who came up with the cost of a hydra needs serious help and should no longer do point costs. Look at the hydra vs. shaggoth and you will be disgusted just like undivided pointed out.

The thing about special characters is that they give you more abilities and better abilities for the most part than a normal lord. Lets take siggy for example

- 1+ save and regen (Can be done with steed and 50 point talisman)
- Ignores terrain
- Ld 10 (something that isnt in our regular sections)
- 7 attacks at ASF (this is more attacks than a basic lord can get/ ASF is obtainable though)
- Stubborn (can only be done with the big banner)

So we can say he has the crown of conquest and helm of many eyes. Thats 75 magic points there, but his abilities dont stop there. A normal lord would only have 25 points left to grab something. Siggy gets 2 attacks, ASF, ignore terrain, Ld 10, and stubborn compared to a normal lord just getting 25 points of items. On top of that most of these upgrades are not even given to us in our normal section. Stubborn from a general and Ld 10 are both very nasty. For some reason high leadership was not something we were intended to have much of but this guy blows that out of the water.


Im not even going to try to compare valkia to a normal lord. She has absolutely nothing in common. She is just a big dirty girl that can dismantle units, hunt characters, or hunt anything else you can imagine.


And for the scaling issue. As I said it is a general rule among most gamers that the 2000-2250 point level is of a rather small scale. To add to this though I will point out that 2000 is the MINIMUM point range for 1 lord choice. So a Lord is legal but as I have shown special char lords are really a step above normal lords in power and abilities. In these size games a special char lord can dominate. In such a low point battle the opponent most likely wont have many things to handle these guys. The reason why it is better to use them in big point games is because the nasty characters get watered down. There abilities arent so nasty because if they dismantle a unit its not as large a percentage of the entire army, and in larger games people will have more variety and have more ways to take down a lord. They should even have some lords of their own. Not everyone runs a lord in 2kish games.

And just to cover my bases here. I do include those crazy stardragon lords in this type of list. Those things are rediculous in 2kish games. And dont bring up demons because they are insane. I watched an unexperienced demon player destroy one of my stores better players this weekend and I saw first hand how crazy some of their stuff is.


And to mention the hydra. That thing needs to be a at least 50 points more, but even with its abilites it can be dealth with. Monsters have to come out in the open some time, so it can be shot at or magiced. And it can also be baited away or stalled. I know a dragon is a monster but it flies which excludes it here.

[Archmage Lecai]

Look if you whana use special characters go ahead.

I personally, and I'm NOT putting this on others, is that special characters are unique individuals that would not be at every 2000pt game, or small point games. They're more unique than "Rare" creatures. I PERSONALLY use special characters only at 3000pt+ games at the minimum, and thats usually just the hero ones, Character Lords stick closer to 5000pt games.

[el_don]

Pffffft. Sigvald's on his way to speak to Archaon, but has been told he can't take his whole army, as that would be tantamount to a threat of war. Instead, he can only take an honour guard with him - say, a couple units of his finest Knights, a few units of his hard-as Warriors, his personal Shaggoth bodyguard and some Horsemen to act as outriders and ensure the party isn't ambushed on the way to speak to the great leader of all Chaos.

En-route, they bump into a raiding party of Orcs. Battle commences.

Does the Orc general, at this point, say "hey! No fair! You can't justify having a powerful hero in such a small band of troops!!"? Or does he grunt, heft his rusted axes, and cut a bloody swathe through the stinkin' humies who seem to be wearing oddly heavy armour? Oh - and who's this golden chap? Looks like a pansy.

I would go so far as to say that there is nothing that cannot, somehow, be justified in the fluff of Warhammer. It's a frikkin' fantasy land. You could run Chaos and High Elves together and find a reason for it if you really wanted to. Saying that a powerful Lord wouldn't be found dead with such a small force as is represented by a 2,250 point army is just silly.

Personally, I don't run special characters in my lower lists. But that's a personal preference. I would have issues with anyone complaining if I wanted to run a special character, though. They're in the rulebook. They're legal. They're designed to be limited by the structure of the game. And you know what? If you want to take a special character, that's also fine by me. *Shrugs*. I don't understand why you think they'd even be in the book if they weren't intended to be used?

[shakedown47]

As El-don said, the special characters are in the books, and so they have every right to be used.

A separate issue, though, is the type of person who uses them. In my gaming group it is quite frowned upon and looked at as poor sportsmanship to use special characters in tournaments and friendly games. Themed, large-scale games are generally the only place you'll see characters around here.

I can't speak for other regions in the country, or even the world, but the type of person who designs their normal lists around special characters (especially multiple special characters) is generally the same type of person who takes two hydras and a dragon in their DE list. The issue isn't necessarily that the list is broken or unbeatable, but that the games themselves are not fun to play; and when I commit an hour or three of my time to someone else's enjoyment, I expect the same courtesy in return.

Most of the games I've played with special characters (whether I've used them or an opponent) have gone one of two ways; either the person using special characters completely steamrolls their opponent, seeming to have a counter or a one-up for everything the player can throw at them and basically cinching the game by turn three or four, or the person using special characters has stupidly spent way too many points of his army on Lords and Heros and has no real troops left to contend with the threats posed by his enemy, and his enemy totally crushes him. Neither outcome is any remote bit of fun for anyone invloved.

[neobubblez]

Long story short, fly>huffing it down the field and maybe gettin into combat turn three. Sigvald is only worth running imo if you wanna play it safe and make sure your lord doesn't die. However if you want to play a more offensive role with your lord, valkia is much better. Also as a side note to valkia, what she brings to the table for your army as a whole does far outweigh an infantry unit ignoring terrain. Both are great lord choices, but imo, valkia has more tools to help you succeed.

[White Lightning]

I agree that it depends on the army wether you use Valkia or Sigvald. I used Sig like 2 so far and haven't used Valkia yet so I don't know how they far exactly on the board. But I like Sigvalds fluff the most so go with him.

As for the other question/argument on this thread, ah threads you always find a way to get off the original topic. I agree with the fact that you should use special characters if you want to. Reading the old book where it said "you need permission from your opponent" or even in 40k where you could only use certain HQ's in certain points valued games, Abbadon for example could only be used in 2000pt games I think, was stupid. Why waste our time with making the rules and model if we couldn't use it? Thats why they scrapped the old system it was stupid. Yeah make your army but it has to go by our guide lines and then your opponent can say, no change your list. Then it wasn't even your list.

And why do veteran players look down upon players that use special characters? Because then the guy that has played for 2 years can beat him and his 20 years of experience. Veterans have more experience, which is explained by the definition of veteran, so find a way to get past the special character.

Plus Special Characters are the on the bottom of the list for things fantasy players should worry about. Look at the "typical" tournament, normally 2000pt/2250, winners Dark Elves, Vamps, Daemons, sometimes Lizardmen, High Elves and WoC. They always win because there army is just better than those others out there. And look at the builds.

Dark Elfs: 2 war hydras rare choices, 20 Black Guard with ASF Banner and BSB. Yeah justify Fluff wise if that makes sense.
Daemons: ok anything they do really is good they are just ridiculous.
Vamps: Vampire lord/Mannfred and 3 hero Vampires. Yeah Vampires are jealous and power hungry creatures, justify why there are 4 in one army and when 3 are all as strong as each other. They would be trying to kill each other more than fighting.
Lizard: like 6-7 Stegadons. These things are huge! Justify that many big monsters in a 2000pt game
High elves: Star Dragon and another hero on dragon, Star dragon are rare and only powerful mages can awaken them why is it in a 2000pt game?
WoC: Tzeentch Daemon Prince, These guys are the culmination of decades of service to the dark gods yet he lead like 40 warriors to battle and all the heros are blessed by tzeentch and have discs? Again Justify fluff wise why you have 3 characters at like 800pts in a 2000pt game.

If you are really worried about someone playing a special character because you are 100% not gonna win there are plenty of other builds that can run you over. Unless your saying that you can easily beat these lists and only when a Special Character is involved do you run into problems.
Oh and like half of the army books out there have some average to below average Special characters, so its not every special charcter is dumb its the dozen or so ones that are just ridiculous that you have a problem with.