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I've got about a year and a half under my belt, and I've played WoC effectively against dark elves, tomb kings, vampire counts, and lizard men, extensively.
But I CANNOT beat wood elves! I won once, because my opponent decided to have fun and field a 'combat heavy' WE army (cough).
I've tried a lot of things, magic heavy, a totally mounted force, hunkering down sorcerers in units of warriors, hellcannon (I was desperate), all sorts of things. But there isn't any definitive way I've found that works.
Biggest problem is that I can NEVER catch them, even with an entirely mounted force I only succeeded in two close combats out of a 3000 pt game.
1. any general tips? because I've heard that WE's have a tough time with WoC
2. are two 8 1/2" by 11" woods considered fair when deploying terrain? (considering they get a free 6" forest after that?)
please and thank you
One of the Wood Elf guys that I usually play around here is very good at the game, and I only have a 50/50 record against him, if that. Certain WE armies can be tough for us to face, while others are extremely easy (lots of trees, for example.)
I don't usually like to use lots of magic in my lists (2 level 2's is a lot to me) but magic can really ruin the Wood Elves' day, especially my favorite WoC lore, Death. Doom and Darkness his tougher units and then magic missile him to force the panic check. With high movement and lots of fast cav, a unit that panics in turn one or two stands a good chance of running off the board, and possibly taking another unit with it.
Another tactic, and fortunately one I don't have to adapt to since I always use them, is massive units of armoured marauders. Wood elf shooting can screw up knights and small units of warriors, because they can throw enough shots at you that the law of averages kicks in and you start taking casualties. If they try that on your marauders, though, the joke's on them since you'll still have your 5 CR by the time you get into combat.
Lastly, IMO, Marauder horsemen are worth their weight in gold. Against Wood Elves, who in my experience never take eagles the way HE do, the best defense against march blocking is doing some march blocking of your own. They can outpace you, but careful maneuvering should mean you can limit the number of your own troops forced to trudge slowly across the board.
And no, I don't think two woods templates that big is fair, and that's coming from a HE player who likes taking two big units of White Lions. To me, terrain pieces that severely hamper units' movement should be restricted to a 6 x 6-ish size, and only two or three pieces tops (and even then no more than 1 in the middle of the board.) If he likes using huge pieces of advantageous terrain that way, next time the two of you play tell him you want to count the two large woods pieces as deep water, or lava, or swampland or something like that, so you are both fairly hampered by them.
you make some very good points
I don't usually use marauders on foot, but I can see the advantage.
unfortunately normally he's not even trying to get ANYTHING into close combat, except for maybe a unit of war dancers just to protect his expensive things
and since Elves usually have such high leadership I never really tried to force a ton of panic tests
and i agree with you, marauder horsemen are mouthwatering, but the problem is, that if and when you get to march block with the horsemen, most of the units I end up facing ALL have shooting, and are just made to run me in circles. parking horsemen RIGHT next to a unit that can shoot (even if at all) is basically a guaranteed death
But I think I'll try a couple of my old tactics, but with the smaller forests, every game I get funneled into a narrow gap between the forests and his free one that he puts in the middle, and by the time I'm through he's long gone and still shooting me in the face!
my only remaining question, is HOW do you get foot soldiers into combat against wood elves? my friends not half bad, and he can simply and literally run circles around me, but any back up I have to keep him pinned down gets shot before I can set up any kind of trap
I love playing my WEs against WoC for many of the reasons you list.
WoC is one of my easier matchups, but here's what gives me problems.
Heavy magic. You can run through my dispel scrolls pretty quickly. Gateway is less of a concern as most of units aren't worth much (no treeman for me). Except for my characters. Gateway on my general is the worst. Flickering fire hurts. Nurgle magic can hurt. But don't forget the regular lores. Rod of Torment, that hurts. 2d6 str 3 can wreck a skirmishing unit. Unless I use a spellweaver, getting dispel dice isn't easy. If you can keep sorcerers alive, you can push through my magic defenses, which forces me to get more aggressive, which is good for you, bad for me. WEs like to delay, bait, back off, shoot, etc.
Ld 8 is good but not great. While I have lots of ItP units, some of my most valuable units in game play terms are not ItP. Demon Prince with diabolic splendor can send glade guard, glade riders, and warhawk riders scrambling.
I like disc riding sorcerers but not disc riding exalteds, especially in numbers. They can overwhelm me, but I will go after them with killing blow from waywatchers and wardancers, so be wary of that.
Spawn can be a pain in the butt. High toughness and unbreakable can hold me up if my dryads whiff or my shooting is lack luster.
I love giants. If you want to distract a WE player, field a giant knowing he is going to die and push up your fast units.
Fast units! Those hurt! Two units of knights (my general with armor ignoring arrows can eliminate one but handling two in a game is tough). Plenty of horsemen (like 4 units) and some hounds. Shove all that in my face and it moves me out of my game.
My glade guard can be a problem. People either ignore them at their own peril or over commit troops to get rid of them. If you want to send a block of infantry at them, awesome. I like it. I don't like a flyer getting on my flank or rear and harassing them.
"Traditional" warrior lists will always have a tough time. March blocked, redirected, outmaneuvered. But speed and magic, those are my worst enemies. And refused flanks. I hate fighting against refused flanks as I need maximum mobility.
I'll say again that I love Lore of Death. You've got your usual d6 and 2d6 magic missiles, plus the very useful Steal Soul. However, for some reason it seems like people underestimate the incredible power of Walking Death and Doom and Darkness. Sure, elves have high leadership, but not at -3. At -3, even their general is taking leadership-based tests on a 7. Throw in the Doom Totem, and now he's a 6. And, since it generally lasts two turns but isn't a remains in play spell, each sorcerer that has it in his spell list can be affecting two seperate units in each of your turns. Suddenly, fleeing every charge you set up becomes a worrying prospect; there's a very good chance they'll just keep on going.
I also like to use ogres. A unit of 4, with a champion, will make it to the other side of the board many times with all four models still in the unit. Cast Walking Death on them, and now they cause Terror. Combine that with your Doom Totem/Doom and Darkness Combo, and you're shutting down a lot of his tactical options.
Against WE I don't even bother to try and engage units, instead I go for a refused flank and move my units very conservatively making sure I get a counter charge if he engage me. I also always try to choose to fight on the side with the fewest wood and preferably without any terrain to separate my force. It sometimes take more than 3 turns to engage into close combat against some opponents (that's where having a magic heavy army becomes useful).
Disc hero, DP and knight are my best units against WE since I have a better chance of pulling out a charge if the WE makes a mistakes. Having access to any form of shooting is also very effective. It is also important to keep at least one reserve unit to guard the rear of the army.
Fluff wise a lot of trees would be normal but roll dice for the amount of terrain to make it fair.
If he gets hills for his archers and 3 forest i wouldn't consider it fair because WoC don't have any advantage with terrain pieces. Maybe if you get some buildings on the board.
Wood elves have weak magic, try to get his scrolls off the first turn the rest of the game is yours unless:
You target his elven special units (wardancers,wildriders), they have magic resistance so don't target those.
If he has the royal banner of Ariel all units within 12" have also magic resistance.
Hellcannon and target isolated units - trigger panic tests. If they run they have a big chance running of the table with those 3 dice. Also charging with the cannon can break his fast cav.
Have a unit to protect the crew of the cannon.
Nurgle and tzeentch+ blasted banner are your friends agains shooting.
Last edited by Uziel; October 7th, 2009 at 09:30.
DO NOT place any forest when setting up terrain, if this is/was competitive, id suggest place one hill and say you are done. Frenzy units might be bad as they (Wood Elves) love to feign retreat then surround the unit that charged them.
Last edited by Hashulaman; October 14th, 2009 at 09:54.
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