How do I even out game outcome against undead - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    How do I even out game outcome against undead

    I played against my friends (Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts) and it ended badly for them.
    They teamed up against me. I had some 1460+ points ande they had about 100 more.
    I made all my units full command and maxed my heroes to use up points.

    This is roughly the lists

    Exalted hero, sword of might, enchanted shield, bloodcurdling roar, general
    Exalted hero, the re-roll to hit armour, additional HW, mark of Khorne
    Sorceror, mark of Tzeencht, power familiar, talisman of protection, conjoined homunculus

    12 warriors, hw, shield, fc. (General went here)
    12 warriors, hw, shield, fc, mark of Khorne.
    16 marauders, la, shield, mark of Khorne (the other hero here)
    5 marauder horsemen, la, flails, mark of Slaanesh

    2 Spawns of Slaanesh

    They had
    Konrad
    15 skeleton warriors, spears, shields, fc, banner that doubles unit size
    8 grave guards, shields, fc, banner that gives 1+ to hit
    5 crypt ghouls, champion

    Tomb prince, cloak of dunes
    Liche priest
    8 heavy horsemen, fc, banner of the undying (?) legion
    8 archers fc
    8 archers (this is actually one unit, but splitted. My friend insisted on keeping the command since they are painted that way)

    The main reason we played 2vs1 is for the VC player to learn the rules. He hasn't painted more if you wonder about the unit sizes.
    Summary
    One spawn took out half the spearmen unharmed, sorceror had just one spell, but took out the prince and died due to curse. Lost the horsemen to arrows and ghouls, but less than 5 of each of my infantry units died. I do understand that the VC need larger units and some magic, but hardly anything got trough the armour of my army

    The question is this, how should my friends expand their armies. Tomb king-man is getting some ushabtis and VC getting a necromancer, but other than that please help them.
    If it helps, I'm getting a giant, warhounds 2x5, nurgle sorceror and knights (probably the banner of rage/ mark of Nurgle setup.
    I won on close combat and poor dice throwing by my friends, not tactics or a close race like I prefer. I'd rather lose than continue winning like this.
    If this is the wrong place to ask, I apologize, but any answer is of help. Thanks


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  3. #2
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    Well the first thing that comes to mind is your VC friend needs to drop a combat special character from his list in favor of something that will actually help him...such as a caster able to cast Nehek on his units. Also, what are 8 grave guard going to do? Pretty much nothing. At 700-800 points, he should have a huge group of ranked skellies with FC, BSB, and a vampire with walking death. Two huge groups would be even better.

    Undead armies can't outfight WoC, they can generally only hope to outnumber them and win through Static CR. I don't see how either of your opponents' armies was prepared to do that. If they're going to play as a team, your VC friend could have something like 25+ skeleton warriors with full command and banner of the endless nightmare, a naked wight king bsb, and a Master of the Black Arts Vamp, as well as a corpse cart. Your Tk guy could get some chariots, the hallmark of his army, and focus on trying to whittle down your rank bonuses with shooting before flank charging you with chariot units.

    P.S. If your vamp friend has more units that aren't painted, encourage him to play with what he has and not worry about whether they look pretty or not. We all prefer to play with painted stuff, and we all prefer to face painted stuff, but the reality is if he just shelled out a couple hundred dollars to play this game he has every right to play with every model he just paid for. Let him know it's ok to field un-primered gray plastic if it's going to help him enjoy the game more.
    Last edited by shakedown47; October 8th, 2009 at 03:30.

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    I really think you need some knights in there. They may be too expensive though.
    If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakedown47 View Post

    P.S. If your vamp friend has more units that aren't painted, encourage him to play with what he has and not worry about whether they look pretty or not. We all prefer to play with painted stuff, and we all prefer to face painted stuff, but the reality is if he just shelled out a couple hundred dollars to play this game he has every right to play with every model he just paid for. Let him know it's ok to field un-primered gray plastic if it's going to help him enjoy the game more.
    Well, he paints directly on the sprues, so that would be why he doesn't play with unpainted models. Hid have a grave guard without arms though.

    Thanks for the replies, but they need more help with expanding their army than I do. Knights are planned for the next purchase, or the one after that

    Tomb Scorpions and Varghulf would sabotage a good deal of my play won't they? What should they use against the strenght 5 and 1+ armour save of the knights?

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    Senior Member Akaroth's Avatar
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    One of undeads main strengths is being able to raise models back, so they could both do with investing a lot more in the magic phase. Use can use this ability to 'tarpit' units, essentially getting a tough enemy unit stuck in eternal conflict with the restless dead. Also, grave guard can be given great weapons to open up knight armour, or you can just rely on their killing blow, which ignores armour. If you or your friends look through the VC or TK forums there should be some more threads, or you could check this (Being Dead - A Vampire Count Overview)
    "Knights had no meaning in this game. This wasn't a game for knights."


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    A cost-effective way (model cost versus in-game points cost) to deal with anything armoured or high toughness would be a tomb Banshee. Sure, she can flub her roll, but on average dice she's killing one knight. I've had a tomb banshee take out 4 knights on a stand and shoot reaction, plus she can use the attack in combat. The speed and number of attacks of the tomb wraiths make them ideal flankers as well, generally without fear of reprisal.

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    I can't speak for Vampire Counts, but Tomb King armies tend to struggle below 2,000 points. Both Undead successes are heavily predicated on more than just SCR, they are intrinsically tied to the magic phase and with those characters, their magic phase is terrible.

    On the TK side of things, his list is entirely too soft. Send your TK buddy over to the TK forum. We'll take good care of him over there IMHO, he made a bad list to put against Chaos. Your Warriors alone could probably walk over their lists because Undead that aren't characters blow in combat for the most part. Both of them should've brought as many Tomb/Grave Guard as they could fit in a list...Killing Blow is their only real chance of hurting your Chaos Warriors aside from their fighty characters. No Tomb King list should be without a Scorpion either.

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    Thanks again.

    Three things that makes me ask these questions is:

    -They don't excell at english (the three of us being from Norway is a viable excuse )

    -Thats about what they have, we've started out playing again. TK player got two tomb swarms, spearmen unit and five light horsemen, but had to leave them due to my size compared to their.

    -We're all youngins (20) and money IS a thing. So each purchase will be influenced by you through me.

    By the way Shakedown, isn't it illegal for undead to stand and shoot? I've only read the TK undead rules, but I do believe I read so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilla View Post
    By the way Shakedown, isn't it illegal for undead to stand and shoot? I've only read the TK undead rules, but I do believe I read so
    Not to my knowledge, but then again I don't own a copy of the TK book and there are only a few TK players in the area and I get to see them sparingly at best. As far as I know the only shooting weapons available to VC are breath weapons and the banshee's Ghostly Howl special rule. Near the end of the paragraph explaining how it works, it specifically says that the banshee may use it as a stand and shoot reaction.

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    I have a cunning plan no1cafc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilla View Post
    By the way Shakedown, isn't it illegal for undead to stand and shoot? I've only read the TK undead rules, but I do believe I read so
    You are correct as they may only Hold as a charge reaction taking away the option to stand and shoot.
    BEN DIESEL FTW!!!

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