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Has anyone triedd a chaos MSU army ? Ok, I know that we generally field as many units as we can, which are usually small because of their point cost. But what about MSU style for chaos, an army using units such as :
10 Marauders, GW or Flails, MoK. 80 pts
slow unit, but with good Fast cav, you could be able to bait a charge for them. They would punch as hard as WoC with Halberds, for a fraction of the price. Indeed, higly vulnerable to missile fire. Deployed in a 7/3 fashion for attack maximization
6 Forsaken. 108
Ok, they use up a precious special slot, but for their point cost, these guys could give a real punch. ANd the are relatively fast and resilient
5 Horsemen with Flails or TA, MoS, Mus. 91 pts
Perfect bait and counter charge unit, IMO.
5 Horsemen, Flails, MoK. 105
They punch as hard as KoC, for half he points...
5 KoC, Banner. 220
They are just too good to be ignored
Chariots as Nurgle Sorcerers mounts. 100 pts (+price of the sorcerer)
We actually get a resilient chariot with a mark making it even more resilient for a fraction of the price, and don't use our precious special slots doing so
3 Chaos trolls. 105
Once stupidity their stupidity is past, the real strength of these guys are their cost + minimum squad size. They get better save that the Ogre or Dogres for the same T, and special attacks for all situations (and a cool regen rule)
5 Hounds. 30
perfect screening unit
A shooting monster. Hell yeah !
Do you think it is possible to make up a competitive army around these small units like DE or HE can do ? Or do you think that WoC needs more of an anvil and hammer approach ?
I have a buddy who sometimes likes to house a sorcerer with trolls. It gives them better leadership and serves as a good bunker for the wizard. The regen rolls are huge when EotG starts kicking in.
2010 WoC Cav W/L/D - 7/3/1
@ miawmiaw1 :
Can you explain to me what's the difference between 14 str 5 attacks at WS 4 for 80 points (considering average WS is 3), getting the charge, and an average of 12 str 4 attacks at WS 5 for 200+ pts, getting the charge ? One is more resilient. Numbers are resilient. More units is more resilient. Given we can't always get the charge, WoC are still overall better, but yes, Maurauders can punch as hard, if not even more, than WoC, for wayyyyy cheaper.
Same is true for Horsemen. What the **** am I saying ? I'm saying that 10 str 5 and 10 str 3 at 16'' are just as good as 5 str 4 and 10 str 5 at 14''. Plus you get the speed factor, and the ability to re-roll pursuit on a unit that must pursuit. For half the points, you are way less resilient, but the speed makes and the point cost difference makes up for it.
Reality is, Marauders are only worse at surviving until they reach the enemy because they have no armour saves, so small arm shooting and magic missiles will hurt them more. Once in combat, they can count on outnumber, banners, ranks and a punch just as hard as any WoC unit to win the combat.
28 Maurauders, flails or GW, Banner, MoK. 182 pts Deployed 7x4.
I agree, Marauder horsemen with flails and mark of khorne can smack the enemy real hard, but after the first round of combat, they're meat for the enemy.
I've run MoK Horsemen just once, and they were impressive, dished out some real hurt. I prefer Slaanesh horsemen because I like them for baiting and redirecting more than I want kills from them.
can always use dogs for that though, just so long as you have you general near them they should rally.
2010 WoC Cav W/L/D - 7/3/1
Marauder Horsemen will die in round 2. That is the difference.
And please most units have ws3 ??? Ask the dwarves about that !
KoC have 1+ Armour Save and the maximum Marauder Horsemen can have is what 4+ ? And they lose their fast cav rule with that.
There is a diff with WS5 and WS4.
You see....marauders can only hit str5 in round 1...koc fight at str5 in EVERY round.oh and they cause fear.
Marauder Horsemen wont be breaking any infantry regiments on their own, unless ur rly lucky. KoC can handle a combat much more if on their own.
besides if an enemy has alot of firepower they will know where to hit and cause havoc.
with that said, this is just my 2c...but anyway ummm i only use marauder horsemen to support charges or to strike weak units and the like. but i never put them instead of KoC.
as for marauders on foot ive found their worth when fighting undead. they are very suitable there just give them MoK and flails and you will slay basic undead easily. I use 1 unit of WoC as mainstay usually with them nonetheless - you never know if you come across elite infantry in which case WoC have to be there.
As much as I am tempted to burst out into flames likes some missing member of the Fantastic Four, I'm going to try to keep this civil and argue for both sides...
I think what Bladesuit means when he says that the units have similar "hitting power" is just that: the damage they do when they hit. I don't think that he is making any statements regarding their survivability.
Even still, although a Chaos Knight looks better on paper, a pair of M.Horsemen regiments will fare better for the simple fact that they have twice the number of wounds and present twice the number of targets.
10 handgunners firing at a regiment of 5 Chaos Knights might take them out, and waste 250pts. If they kill even three knights, you lose 125pts and several attacks. But 10 handgunners firing at 2 regiments of M.Horsemen will only kill five, and leave you with another 5 angry horsemen who don't need to test for panic, and who still have all of their attacks and unit strength. That single turn of shooting as only cost you 105pts instead of 125 and several negative factors.
The same theory can be applied to the Marauders on foot. They lack survivability, but they make up for it in numbers. That is infact the downfall to Plate-armies. 12 Warriors on foot will rarely even make it across the board, but 25 Marauders are often seen as viable regiments.
I will agree however that 10 of them seems scant. I would try to make regiments of 20. No smaller than 15 for sure. They're cheaper than elves, you'd be surprised at the sheer number of regiments you'll end up with. Trust me, I play HE and WoC as well.
For the comments on WS3- he's right. Most armies will only be swinging with WS3, although the spread of opponents you face in your area may tip this average somewhat (if you play dwarves every night, then yes, WS4 is less effective). There is almost no difference between WS4 and 5, as the best you can hit on is 3's and very few enemies will need to roll 5's to hit you unless you mark them Nurgle.
Marauder Horsemen should only ever be fighting single-round combats. If you are running MSU, you'll want to make sure that you have a few un-frenzied regiments of Fast Cavalry (hounds or more MHs with Flails) to smash into the flank. Sending M.Horsemen in alone and unsupported will see you bounce every time. Of course, sending in Knights against any unit of equal points value will see them bounce as well. The benefit to sticking with M.Horsemen is that you should have a bunch of them so that they can spread wounds out and also help eachother in combat. Consider the following pair:
1 MoK Flail MH regiment + 1 Flail MH regiment = 1 KoC regiment
This pair should always be moving near one another, and work together for survivability and also to drag down larger regiments. There's nothing to laugh at when you have 15S5 attacks raining in, and you've just lost your rank bonus. Not to mention the +1 for a flank charge can offset those pesky banners.
This is where DavidWC09's point about marking Slaanesh comes into play. If I recall, he uses a more "standard" Warriors army, and doesn't rely on M.Horsemen as damage-causers. If you want to drop knights out of the force altogether (a rare but nasty trick) you'll need to keep the MoK regiments.
As Ayliffe said, Dogs can fill the same role as the unmarked M.Horsemen regiment, although they are even less hardy and less damaging when they hit the flank.
Against undead, additional handweapons and mark of Slaanesh will usually do the trick at premium costs. You are suddenly immune to their fear, and you're swinging with 2A and usually wounding on 3's. If you do lose a few combats, you can trust that you'll be sticking around rather than fleeing outright.
I will agree with MiawMiaw that the Helcannon isn't really worth taking. It's very expensive and somewhat unreliable. Our army doesn't have shooting, and that's something you'll have to get used to when you build WoC armies. Fast, cavalry based armies make this a slightly smaller problem, but the main issue is that we have nothing to cover our advance or shift an enemy to come to us. We need to use magic, and that's why you see a lot of WoC armies focusing on building an extremely powerful magic phase. They need it not only for their own defense, but also to make sure that they can soften up the enemy on their way across the board. We don't have the benefit of backing our attack with RBTs and minimum Archer units.
You can build an effective MSU army with WoC. I admit that I've only ever managed to do it by using Cavalry or other fast moving monsters like D.Ogres or lucky spawn. The trick is to close quickly, with more targets than they can hope to deal with, and overwhelm them completely. It has a very "horde-like" feel to it. HighElves have several small units because their troops are so good but so costly. Effective MSU chaos armies have small units so that they can get more of them. Think of the army more as a mounted Orc army, rather than a Chaos army, and you'll be on the right path.
And Miawmiaw- I'm glad to see that our new members are helping out. But please, try to limit your posts to constructive criticism, rather than implying that someone has no idea what they're doing. If something "sucks inappropriate" then tell them why it is so terrible. Personally, I think that Warriors on Foot are one of the most useless regiments in the book. But that means nothing if I don't explain that I play with an army that spends the majority of it's points on Knights.
Finally: tpye out ur GD words and try 2 capitalize at least the 1st letter of ea. sentence. this isnt a txt message and it makes u look like ur 12. it also makes it harder 4 our foreign-language members b/c they may not be fluent enough in English to understand slang or abbreviations. Lastly, I'm offended by your lowbrow mastery of the English language, there's no excuse for such laziness.