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Marked or unmarked that is the question

  • Nurgle

    Votes: 14 35.0%
  • Slaanesh

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • Tzeentch

    Votes: 19 47.5%
  • Unmarked

    Votes: 3 7.5%

Sorcerers what lore is best

3K views 41 replies 15 participants last post by  Mr_Wayne 
#1 ·
Ok Here you can choose if you think if it is better to have a sorcerer unmarked or marked and which mark.
 
#2 ·
its not really a question of better, an undivided sorcorer has alot more tacitcal flexibility, but the marks offer other bonuses than just a new lore to play with.

i voted Tzeentch because my chaos armies are all about the theme, and you cant beat 20pts for +1 to cast and a ward save.
 
#5 ·
I tried all the lores and my favourite one is Slaanesh. If I had to choose the best, logically it is Tzeentch however. In all my games Tzeentch sorcerer were superior for 4 reasons:
+1 to cast
ward save
flying disc
good selection of spell

Nurgles clearly comes in second namely because the no.1 spell isn't crap and Slaanesh in third position. Unmarked sorcerer have the ability to choose their lore but unless they are lvl4 the fire and death lore aren't that good (and different).
 
#6 ·
I play my Sorc. Lord and Daemon Price with lore of Heavens most of the time, I like being able to shoot missiles as long as the emeny is in my line of sight, and re-rolling ones on a unit of Chosen or Warriors, yes please!

Nurgle would be my lore of choice from the WoC book, Curse of the leper is great if you've got 2 Sorcs. casting it on one unit, you also get regen. and other goodies. The combination of low casting values and all 6 spells being useful in many different situations always draws me to Nurgle.

Of course we all know without a doubt Tzeentch is the best lore/mark...
 
#7 ·
I'm really surprised that Slannesh got any votes actually. I think their spells are too dependent on leadership and there just aren't enough low leadership armies to make them better than Tz. or Nurgle. Can any Slannesh voters justify their votes? Just curious :)
 
#9 ·
I'm really surprised that Slaanesh got any votes actually. I think their spells are too dependent on leadership and there just aren't enough low leadership armies to make them better than Tz. or Nurgle. Can any Slaanesh voters justify their votes? Just curious :)
Sigh, i should just save this in a document so i don't have to post it all the time. I haven't voted, but here's why Slaanesh ISN'T just about leadership, though everyone seems to think it is...


Lash: Granted it's not as good as Buboes or FF, but it has it's uses. You can use it to hinder an enemy unit's movement if necessary. Other than that, ya it's not that great, but it CAN be useful.

Hellshriek: K obviously this one is all about leadership, but even against High LD armies, it can be very good, especially if combined with Diabolic Splendour and pandemonium. Against Low LD armies, it cleans the board pretty quick.

Hysterical Frenzy: People look at this and assume you will cast it on enemy units, which indeed can be handy; baiting a big block out of position and so on. BUT, the best use for this spell in my opinion, is on our own knights. You can frenzy knights AFTER they get into the combat they want, and you can cut it as soon as the combat is over. One a unit of 5 knights, this is an extra ten attacks (5 knights, 5 horses) and can turn the tide of a battle very dramatically. d6 S3 hits are rarely gonna even cause a wound, let alone get through the 1+ save. This application is very useful against ItP armies such as VC, TK and DoC as well.

Titillating Delusions: Doesn't have to deal with leadership, only psychology, and yes many things are immune to psych. But there are also a lot of things that aren't. Chariots for example; you can lead them into terrain so they take damage, you could cast it on a star dragon and fly him away from the battle, use it to mess up battle lines, the list goes on and on. Movement is where this game is typically won, and being able to **** with your opponents movement how you see fit is HUGE advantage.

Aura: Another spell that has applications against ItP armies; something people seem to think this Lore lacks.. Consider this, your warriors holding a flank get into combat with a big unit of skeles and don't have as much SCR as the skele's do (such as the +9 SCR blocks VC can put up). You know they're going to break from Outnumber with fear. In this case you can cast Aura on them, now because they cause fear, they are immune to fear, also the VC have to pass a LD test in order to do any damage (even though they probably wouldn't do much anyways), this allows the warriors to further the amount of CR they get, and maybe even win the combat. You could cast it on knights or disc riders in the middle of an army, to have a new terror bomb. Again, the list goes on.

Seizures: This spell is huge... and another spell useful against ItP armies. Bloodletters? T3? half that unit dies, no wardsaves. Horrors? No more wizard levels for you. Not to mention it can be cast out of combat and doesn't need LoS.

These are some reasons this lore could be seen as better than Nurgle or tzeentch. I certainly think it's better than Tzeentch; my belief is people see FF, Pandemonium and Gateway and kind of disregard the other shitty spells. I'm torn between Nurgle and Slaanesh though. Slaanesh is certainly a less damage driven and more tactics based lore, perhaps this is why people don't like it; they don't know how to use it to their advantage and would rather just blow shit up, but that's the difference between a skilled player and a mediocre one.
 
#10 ·
ok I do see how you can favor Slaanesh magic, but I don't see enough in your logic to make it BEST. certainly not better than Tz. A big thing that puts Slaanesh behind the others is the first spell. Yes it has its uses, but FF and Buboes are both better, and what happens if you get stuck with a bad spell, because none of the lores is full of perfect spells for every situation and very often you just need that first spell.

Also, better than Tzeentch??? :?

Ok so you've acknowledged the merits of FF, Pandemonium and Gateway but what about Treason and Call to Glory???

Treason of Tzeentch: OWNS Elves, as well as any other unit that hits hard but is squishy i.e. pretty much anything T3. Nothing better than having Executioners or White Lions hack themselves apart with their own weapons. Basically the stronger your enemy, the better this spell is, so it really can't be bad!

Call to Glory: An extra Hero!!! AN EXTRA HERO!!! cast it on a marauder and turn a meatshield that has been disregarded and left on a seemingly well guarded flank (protected by the leftover Skaven Chieftain or Goblin boss) into a force to be reckoned with, and win a couple challenges, Eye of the gods, and see your opponent start to sweat. Plus this allows you to put more points into magic heroes and simply cast this from a dispel caddy lvl 1 or 2 and *poof* instant combat character! just add water.

Plus you cannot overlook the +1 cast and 6+ invul, almost unfair when determining the best lore...almost. ;)
 
#11 · (Edited)
okay... BUT

ok I do see how you can favor Slaanesh magic, but I don't see enough in your logic to make it BEST. certainly not better than Tz. A big thing that puts Slaanesh behind the others is the first spell. Yes it has its uses, but FF and Buboes are both better, and what happens if you get stuck with a bad spell, because none of the lores is full of perfect spells for every situation and very often you just need that first spell.
I never said it was the best, i said those are reasons some people may think it is better. I also did mention that the other two basic spells were better, but in general people don't take level 2 slaanesh sorcerers, and certainly not level 1s, that is where i think Nurgle and tzeentch belong, because their first spells ARE much better. On a level 4 with a spell fam (which is very common, especially for Slaanesh Sorcerers), you WILL get spells you can use, and if used properly, i would argue they are better in a lot of cases than those of tzeentch, and possibly nurgle.

Also, better than Tzeentch??? :confused:

Ok so you've acknowledged the merits of FF, Pandemonium and Gateway but what about Treason and Call to Glory???

Treason of Tzeentch: OWNS Elves, as well as any other unit that hits hard but is squishy i.e. pretty much anything T3. Nothing better than having Executioners or White Lions hack themselves apart with their own weapons. Basically the stronger your enemy, the better this spell is, so it really can't be bad!
Everything owns elves from a damage perspective; they're pussies. With this spell, you have to hit on a 4+, now you have to wound, preferably on a 2+, then they may get armour saves, wardsaves, regen saves etc. With ecstatic seizures you need one more dice (which makes it harder to dispel, so it's not exactly a bad thing), and you eliminate all the rolling after the initial 4+, everyone who roles 4+ takes a wound, no saves of any kind. Much better in my opinion. Sure you can do a bit of damage with treason, but compared to the other spells you have, it's not worth wasting dice on, especially when the big nasty in that lore needs 5 dice on average to cast.

Call to Glory: An extra Hero!!! AN EXTRA HERO!!! cast it on a marauder and turn a meatshield that has been disregarded and left on a seemingly well guarded flank (protected by the leftover Skaven Chieftain or Goblin boss) into a force to be reckoned with, and win a couple challenges, Eye of the gods, and see your opponent start to sweat. Plus this allows you to put more points into magic heroes and simply cast this from a dispel caddy lvl 1 or 2 and *poof* instant combat character! just add water.
An extra hero that awards the enemy 100 VP, not to mention a LOT of lists now are all mounted lists, mine included, where this spell is completely useless. That may make me slightly bias though. Again, compared to the other spells available it's not worth wasting dice on MOST of the time.


Plus you cannot overlook the +1 cast and 6+ invul, almost unfair when determining the best lore...almost. ;)
You can when you get terror bombed off the table, or panic (don't say it doesn't happen, i've lost tournament games to shit like this.) ;)
 
#12 ·
well a lot of what you are saying is that 'Slaanesh is better at this if you do this.' I agree Slaanesh is not ALL about leadership, but it is too leadership focused IMHO for it to be the best lore overall. the points you make are valid in those specific instances (i.e. Call to Glory not being useful in all cav) but the poll isn't about all cav armies, and I actually don't know of many all cav armies at all, even in local tourneys. The point is, it CAN be better, but that doesn't justify a vote as the best.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Even in armies that aren't all cav, in most cases there's no point in wasting dice on it, 4 strength 5 attacks isn't that great.

and how can the lore be too leadership based, there is only one spell that is solely based on LD, the rest can be used in plenty of nasty ways.
 
#14 ·
there are 3 spells in the lore that dont affect units immune to psycology, so your playing undead and roll 1,2,3,4,5 for your spells, you have lash, and aura that you can use, effectivly a waste of a wizard lord.

also i noticed you said hellshriek was better if you get pandemonium off, but thats a demon spell, doom and darkness from an undivided sorc would have been more likely comparison.
 
#18 ·
Pandemonium is from the WoC Tzeentch lore, it's not a daemon spell.

Also, if you roll 1,2,3,4,5 you can make your units immune to fear, **** with the enemies movement (lash), and frenzy your units while they're in combat. Not that bad, also consider that most Slaanesh sorc's will take BoS, you also have that spell, among the others that the rest of your wizards bring.
 
#15 · (Edited)
This is just about Call to Glory, in my opinion this is the most usless spell to have on a lvl 4 wizard or even a level 2 wizard:

firstly it is a remains in play spell which means as soon as the spell ends I am losing not just the hero but the model that turned into the hero. secondly when I am paying the points we are for our characters I want him to be able to cast spells and while this is in play i cant.

whats worse is that it casts on 11+ which means its not even easy to cast.

sorry back to the topic, i would go undivided any day simple because they are cheaper because they dont have to pay for a mark and they will almost always be effective while all the morked lores have their weaknesses and undivided sorcerer has a choice of 3/4 lores depending on whether he is a lord or hero. Tornement wise I would never take a marked sorcerer because if I dont know who I am playing and I dont want to be stuck in a situation where my level 4 sorcerer is next to usless.
 
#16 ·
who cares if the model that changes disappears after if it was a marauder or even a warrior? use it strategically; threaten a BSB that was in a previously safe combat or some other character, or just burn marauders to draw out dispel scrolls/ dispel dice if you happen to get stuck with the spell and have absolutely no other use for it. I have found it very helpful in a number of games actually.
 
#17 ·
if it was cast against me I would let you have it because you cant cast any other spells while that is in play effectivly making that wizard usless. Any smart general will let you have that spell.
 
#19 · (Edited)
your hands aren't tied though. don't forget you can stop a remains in play spell whenever you want. Use it the same way DE and Skaven use assassins: surprise hero, take out a BSB or other key enemy, wipe the spell if the enemy was 'smart' enough to let you achieve your goal with it, and then go about your business as normal casting what you want. You can take a big block of marauders and a lvl 2 with good rolls and the right items can cast FF and then Call to Glory, Hero does his thing, next turn wipe the spell at the start of the phase and repeat. It'll cost 5-6 marauders rather than 1, but lets you cast other spells, and marauders are expendable enough that it is definitely worth it

EDIT: and don't forget this is supreme tactical flexibility. Sometimes you plan to need to be magic heavy and wish you took another combat character mid-game. Nothing else in the Warhammer world lets you just MAKE a combat hero, certainly not one as potent as an Exalted Hero, and for as sad as it is to have a Sorc. 'go to waste', they'd be wasted anyways if your opponent's magic defense was too heavy to make him useful. This type of flexibility is invaluable in a tournament especially when you could really face anything.
 
#23 ·
sorry but in my opinion 4 str 5 attacks wont make that much difference in my oppinion. Lets use your example with the BSB, assuming you managed to get your spell off against said magic heavy army. Most units with a BSB will have another character in for such situations and if not they will atleast have a champion. Now your exalted hero is forced to make a challange which your opposition will accept with either the champion (if he doesnt think he can kill your exalted hero) or the other characters (if he knows he will beat you).

In my opinion this spell is next to usless and is risky to cast consistantly with a casting value of 11 and generally needing 3 dice. There a alot of spells that I would rather cast that are alot more usfull and have lower casting values.
 
#25 ·
Oh no, I agree completely that Slaanesh is flexible, my only problem with it is that more often than not, unless you go magic heavy, you are very likely to get a Ld based spell which is too easy to ignore for high Ld armies or disregard completely for ItP armies.

Lets use your example with the BSB, assuming you managed to get your spell off against said magic heavy army. Most units with a BSB will have another character in for such situations and if not they will atleast have a champion. Now your exalted hero is forced to make a challange which your opposition will accept with either the champion (if he doesnt think he can kill your exalted hero) or the other characters (if he knows he will beat you).
Just replace a normal marauder, not your champ. If they charged they get to challange first I believe? Either way, you get to chose whether to fight with the marauder champ or Exalted, Letting you make the same measurements and choices based on your opponents. Either way, you turn a slaughter of a unit of marauders into a fair fight, or a fair fight into a slaughter in your favour. This, used in the right spot could collapse a flank or brreak the center of a battle line.
 
#24 ·
If you want to talk about tactical flexibility, look at the slaanesh lore. Even lash can be good against fast cav, on average doing 1 wound, and they can't march move, hellshreik can ruin skaven a goblins days, and the rest can be used for every situation.

Lets not forget that slaanesh can be nice on a level 2 too, use him to back up a tzneetch sorcerer, your opponent now has a choice, he can let his army run where the caster wants them too, and dispel the oncoming gateway, or he can dispel the slaanesh stuff, and brace for a gaeway, just very tactically flexible.
 
#26 ·
The real problem with call to glory is to safely cast it you nedd 3-4 dice to cast right? If you're using 3-4 dice on a call to glory, even if you're bringing a 14 PD army, your lord can now only use 2 (3 with a BoS or power familiar) so there no way he can cast gateway. my problem with tzneetch is that, yeah, FF and gateway are beast, but treason is highly situational, baleful transmogrification is almost useless, call to glory is again highly situational, and pandemonium is effective but reamains in play. Slaanesh has its place as does tzneetch, but it is alot about preference.
 
#27 ·
ok i know it was a few posts ago but im gunna appologise for thinking you said phantasmagoria instead of pandemonium...my bad
 
#29 ·
lvl2 slaanesh is garbage.

I'm extremely amazed at ayliffe here, too bad I can't give him any more rep. All his arguments are spot on. I beat a demon army in a tournament (A guy who was undeafted at that point) to win the tournament with slaanesh magic by turn TWO. My dragon was messing up 1 horror unit while I was seizuring the other to death and my knights held off the rest of his army. He just quit, because he was so shocked at a lore he thought that sucked. A lvl4 slaanesh with BoS will ALWAYS have 4 spells he likes. A tzeentch lvl4 with BoS doesn't always have that option. On top of that if he goes for gateway he won't be casting any more spells except maybe flickeringfire.

But you're missing the point. Slaanesh can hold its own against ITP armies. It doesn't hinder you and it gives you many many options, specially with BoS. But when you play one of the other armies, you know the 8-9 other armies that do deal with psychology (even with LD10), you own the battlefield. THis lore is the best lore when fighting these types of armies. And let's be honest here, if you're playing in a comp tournament you won't be facing many demons/VC, you'll most likely face TK and you shouldn't have a problem with them.
 
#30 ·
right so if you go to carnage this year( which is 1999 point limit so no lords) in that style of play what marks would you give to your sorc then?
its not all about what would you give a level 4 sorc.

also @pinkus, i know you hate me, but im very suprised that demon player was undefeated, he obviously didnt have a greater deamon, didnt realise that the second demon Tzeentch horror spell will trash a dragon in combat, and he didnt have a bsb with standard of sundering, and for some odd reason wasnt using the changeling which would have brought some smack down to your dragon, and would have easily killed your lord in combat.

again this is not the point. at 1500-1999 points i wouldnt give my wizards anything but Tzeentch, i would do the same at 2k, unless i wanted to be an absolute ass and take 4 nurgle wizards and just character snipe like a whore, but that doesnt make for fun interesting gameplay(but funnily enough could kill your slaanesh stuff by turn 2 or 3.

Incidentally there is no "best" lore, and there is no argument in the world that proves otherwise, everyting is playstyle and preference. and for raw fear factor that flickering fire brings my fave is lore of Tzeentch, every single time.
 
#32 ·
so why couldnt he kill a dragon that was stuck in combat with horrors? he could see what the dragons charge arc was and should have been ready to either recieve the charge/or counter charge himself, that makes no sense.
 
#38 ·
We also have a demon player at my store that uses no greater demon, just a mess of slaanesh heralds and its very nasty. Greater demon's are the be all end all. A blood thirster can only be in 1 place at a time. If he was guarding his pink horrors my dragon would be somewhere else, but he chose to use him agressively and he attacked my knights instead. He wiped that 300 points off the table, but it'd have taken him 2-3 turns to turn around and charge my dragon, but by then he wouldn't have had any horrors left.

I don't need to prove myself as a good general or army list builder. I'm 3-0 this year at tournaments with my WoC. Which has won me close to $250. That is all the proof I need.
 
#34 ·
Ok I think I've heard enough to run some more big games with a Slaanesh sorcerer at the helm, as you guys have put up some good arguements. I still think Personally that Tz. is overall better but hey, that's just my opinion :) After debating it a little while though and taking a closer look at the lore, I do have a newer respect for Slaanesh magic. So from what I've heard you normally take them mounted? If I were to stick one with a group of m.horsemen are they still fast cav? :?

OK I'm getting sidetracked... I notice though that no one has spoken up for Nurgle... :)
 
#37 ·
Uhm, generally Slaanesh sorcerers get run on dragons or steeds of slaanesh. This grants them a ton of maneuverability, which is always useful. Otherwise i'd take him on a barded steed for the +2 save and extra S4 attack.

In terms of nurgle, it's my choice for top lore i think, but i don't have time at the moment to talk about it.
 
#35 ·
yes if you stick him with horsemen he is fast cav, but move as slowest model, if you put him on steed of slaanesh they move at horsemen speed, but he can cast magic missiles in 360 line of sight. which is fun :p
 
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