Ogres > Knights. Not really, but now much closer than you'd think.... - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    Ogres > Knights. Not really, but now much closer than you'd think....

    Let's do some comparing.
    7x Ogres, GW, chaos armor, FC, Khorne = 430
    8x Knights, FC, Khorne, Blasted Standard = 440

    Before we start, it's very important to remember Ogres have 21 wounds, Knights have 8. This comes built into their price. For ogres, their armor IS their wounds.

    Knights take the day in movement and shooting. M7 is big over M6 for extra charging distance, and their armor makes them impervious to most shooting, esp with the Standard.

    Ogres take the day in magic. The unit has significantly more wounds and the same number of models. Low init could be a problem against some lores, but one of the best new lores is metal, and that just destroys a unit of knights, as does any other lore that doesn't allow armor, or hits at high strength. Any wound taken is felt much harder by the knights.

    Now to the grit, combat.
    A) Knights will never deny rank bonus on the flank, at least at that point value. You'd have to take at least 12 (I'd think) to make it there with 10 intact. Ogres will deny until they've taken 6 wounds as a unit.
    B ) Ogres come with a CR built in for their rank.

    Knights/Ogres vs. Orc Boyz with LA/Shield (Low WS Init, High T St inf)
    Knights first. 8 horses, 19 Knight attacks: about 8 wounds
    Attacks back. 10 attacks: about .5 wounds
    Attacking ogres. 10 attacks: 1.5 wounds
    Ogres second. 22 attacks: about 9 wounds including stomp

    At a glance it may seem that Knights have the upper hand here. However, you'll notice they're losing models at about the same rate as Ogres, and the Ogres have a model to give before cutting into rank 2. Every would lost by the knights is lost attacks, whereas the Ogres won't lose any attacks until the 4th turn of combat. (Also, if this is a flank, Ogres deny ranks.) Ogres win in wounds. Slight win for Ogres.

    Knights/Ogres vs. 6 front Witchelves (High WS Init, low T St inf)
    Init rolloff... Will lower Knights total wounds inflicted to compensate
    Knights first. 8 horses, 19 Knight attacks: about 12 wounds
    Attacks back. 24 hatred poison attacks: about 1.2 wounds
    Attacking ogres. 24 hatred poison attacks: about 5 wounds
    Ogres second. 22 attacks: about 11 wounds including stomps

    Knights win here. A lot of low str attacks fairs worse against high armor, and ogres barely even out wounds even with stomp. After diving ogre wounds per model, knights fairing slightly better in both departments. Slight win for the knights.

    Knights/Ogres vs. Hydra
    Knights first. 8 horses, 19 Knight attacks: about 3.3 wounds
    Attacks back. 7 hatred attacks: about 2 wounds with thunderstomp
    Init rolloff... Will lower Ogre total wounds inflicted to compensate
    Ogres first. 22 attacks: about 3.8 wounds with stomp
    Attacks back. 7 hatred attacks: about 5.5 wounds with thunderstomp

    Here, Ogres fair better, losing less models per combat, possibly keeping a second rank, and doing more damage. Close for both all around. Slight win for Ogres.

    You can keep plugging and chugging knights and ogres against endless opponents, but I think you'll see now with the new rules for monstrous infantry stepping through, needing ranks to deny rank, getting stomp (and compensating for their extra wounds), ogres fair about as well as knights in any given fight, and they will mix your army up a bit so your opponent doesn't know what statline to expect in any given fight. Also, they provide a much-needed answer for T6 in an opponent's army.

    I say Ogres are now on par with Knights, and with a few exceptions, can do pretty much anything Knights can do just as well. Thoughts?

    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

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  3. #2
    Ogre Tyrant waddywoos's Avatar
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    well this makes sense... and is very good seeing as I have an unpainted ogre kingdoms batallion that I can now add to the chaos army!

    I still think there's one thing you have overlooked though - opponents thinking. They see a unit of khorne knights and think 'crap i need to kill them RIGHT NOW!' and will throw everything at them for a couple of turns to kill them. That can work in your favour as it soaks up all the missile and magic attention and lets your other units do their thing unmolested. The ogres however... don't quite have the 'argh its going to kill my entire army' feeling that khorne knights do.

    its a stigma thing :-P
    'War does not determine who is right, only who is left'
    I am President of the Brunel University wargames society - PM me if interested.

  4. #3
    Champion of Chaos Pinkus's Avatar
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    Knights have swiftstride, have access to magical banners. Str4 or less just bounces off of them, anything WS4 or 5 still hits on 3s.

    And the big kicker here is. You HAVE to take ogres in a 400 point block like this, while spending 300 points on knights gets you one nasty unit.

    I tried Ogres in 8th edition and they died in DROVEs. If we're losing model per model basis, that's combat res is in the favor of the knights. Usually you just have to kill 1 unit for the knights to have done their job and usually knights end up taking out 3-4 units.

    Also hydra's don't thunderstomp knights, nothing does. If you factor in that the knights only get 4 models plus 2-3 in back rank fight the hydra, they get in about 2.25 wounds. Take out thunder stomp and the hydra does around 1.3 (Handlers average .2 wounds) back. We have a banner and 1 more wound, so he's testing on a 6 now. If he breaks, that's a win in my book. The hydra + handlers do 4.5 (handlers average .7 or so) wounds to the ogres While doing 3.5 wounds back. Standard and musician and ranks win the fight for the ogres, but not by as much as the knights win.

    Bottom line is you may have more wounds, but you die so fast.

    Oh and knights LOVE characters joining their units. Ogres don't.
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  5. #4
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    Ah yeah, forgot thunderstomp is only infantry. I guess neither get thundered then.

    Yeah, I still love Knights, but Ogres are ninjas. That stigma is exactly why I like Ogres... Knights usually get a chunk taken out of them by the time they cross the field, but Ogres, your opponent will likely ignore them as they were relatively mediocre in 7th. Now in 8th they perform almost as well as Knights, and if they get across the board relatively ignored and unscathed... mmmm.

    But as I said, Knights still rule. Characters, magic standards, armor save are all awesome. It's just that now, circumstantially, I think we have a viable option #2 (for when your jerk ex-roommate has a love affair with the new Lore of Metal or warmachine spamming).
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

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    1.3 wounds at strength 5? Alright then duck, keep dreaming. Your hitting most things on 4's then you re-roll then you wound on 2's or 3's on most stuff.. You will NOT get 1.3 wounds .. Plus only an idiot would take a charge or charge a group of Knights/Ogres that large .. Hence the Bolt Throwers which will mostly kill everything they touch with the single bolt .. Then you have to worry about the group of Cold One Knights with 6 strength 6 at Initiative 6, so my point is only a complete fool would charge a single Dark elf unit into something like Knights / Ogres.

  7. #6
    Champion of Chaos Pinkus's Avatar
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    Its not as simple as that though. Its a stand off at best with CORiders and chaos knights. You have hatred, I have more attacks.

    Its a good fight no doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elf Nutcase View Post
    1.3 wounds at strength 5? Alright then duck, keep dreaming. Your hitting most things on 4's then you re-roll then you wound on 2's or 3's on most stuff.. You will NOT get 1.3 wounds .. Plus only an idiot would take a charge or charge a group of Knights/Ogres that large .. Hence the Bolt Throwers which will mostly kill everything they touch with the single bolt .. Then you have to worry about the group of Cold One Knights with 6 strength 6 at Initiative 6, so my point is only a complete fool would charge a single Dark elf unit into something like Knights / Ogres.
    This is a mature argument to be making.

    Please, keep the "my army is better than your army!!!11!" to the little kids that run around the store that nobody wants to play.

  9. #8
    Champion of Chaos Pinkus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by insomniac666 View Post
    This is a mature argument to be making.

    Please, keep the "my army is better than your army!!!11!" to the little kids that run around the store that nobody wants to play.
    You mean the 40k kids we all ignore?
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  10. #9
    Ogre Tyrant waddywoos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkus View Post
    You mean the 40k kids we all ignore?
    those, and the rare lotr child that everyone feels sorry for for choosing the wrong game ;-)
    'War does not determine who is right, only who is left'
    I am President of the Brunel University wargames society - PM me if interested.

  11. #10
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elf Nutcase View Post
    1.3 wounds at strength 5? Alright then duck, keep dreaming. Your hitting most things on 4's then you re-roll then you wound on 2's or 3's on most stuff.. You will NOT get 1.3 wounds .. Plus only an idiot would take a charge or charge a group of Knights/Ogres that large .. Hence the Bolt Throwers which will mostly kill everything they touch with the single bolt .. Then you have to worry about the group of Cold One Knights with 6 strength 6 at Initiative 6, so my point is only a complete fool would charge a single Dark elf unit into something like Knights / Ogres.
    I was simply using a DE unit as a combat example for a hurty low T unit. And if you must know, my usual DE opponent is a big fan of taking small units of WEs, buffing them with a cauldron, and kamikazeing into an expensive unit to see what they can kill. So yeah, it is a realistic fight, and a semi-effective one from your end. As for a straight-up fight, DE vs. WoC? Without getting too much into "whose army is better," WoC have gotten a big boost in 8th, and if you haven't fought a WoC army since the new BRB... you may be in for a surprise.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

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