Welcome to Librarium Online!
I am thinking for a long time about playing Prince in 8th edition as my Lord choice. Why? Their models are cool and can be a "visual core" of your army and mainly because most of armys have lvl4 sorclord, thats booooring.
What I want is to ask you for some basic or maybe also advanced advices for building and playing an army with DP. Army should be 2500pts big.
And now my ideas and opinions:
Its not viable to play DP as only combat character - you need some high sorcerer to be competitive and allcomer, so dp for 300pts does not leave too much points for sorc lord. Secondly DP is fragile to fight 300pts back I think.
So I definetely see a wizard DP as a way to go. 4 or maybe 3 lvls. What is really hard for me is to chose the lore:
Tzeentch is really helpful, not so strenght spells, but the mark is golden. +1 to WS and +1 to cast are so good for DP... but spells seems to me shafty.
Slaanesh/Nurgle are lores for 2lvl casters I think, benefits from marks are crap for DP.
Death is strong, I see a potential in sniping, only flaw is that the lore doesnt have any leech "vampiric" spell Still really nice for DP, combo -ld spell with his terror.
Heavens/shadow both really good, what I like as a spell is cometh, this spell seems to me as crazy, unfortunately both lore "empowerments" are crap.
Fire, is there anyone who does like this lore?
What I am considering is death vs. tzeentch, but also heavens seems fone for me.
The worst thing on DP? His defense. Only 5++ and 4W is bad, especielly when you cant hide because of LoS. Only two things that can help are expensive cloak gift against shooting and mark of tzeentch. On the other hand, Fury of the Blood Good seems as no brainer for me. New rules for MR makes this gift worth thousands of goldbricks for DP. If anyone knows about other ways, please post a shotrt comment, I would really like if there is any trick how to use some game mechanics like LOS! to defend the Prince
And what I really dont know is what to do in play with DP. Do you think that DP is able to flank-charge mid-infantry? Or cavalry?He is not so shabby in CC, only defend SCR and defense and is really expensive to lost him in battle, he looks like not so bad point denial.
Really thanks to all of you, who posts some comments to these bad boys. It shame that they have so risky stats.
I've been thinking about running one as well, mainly because he can fly and that would make him a really nice war machine hunter and enables him to help out in combats where need be. I don't want him too expensive though, and points cap is a problem as well.
For 1750 pts, where the cap is 437:
Daemon Prince 420 pts
Lvl 1 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Fury of the Blood God
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Stream of Corruption
He'll get a tzeentch spell, which could be gateway or pandemonium or whatever you'd switch to flickering fire. But the fine thing is that with the Third Eye, he can steal spells instead if he wants to. And the mark is really great for the points here, since you get a 4+ ward and +1 to cast. You CAN do without the mantle. He IS toughness 5, so the only things he really worries about are Cannons and MAYBE handgunners - but they have few shots and you can stay out of their front arc easily if need be. And the mantle will not help him a bit against cannons anyway. So let's use the points for other things, yes?
In 2000 pts (Where you can spend 500 pts on him):
Maybe give him Bloodcurdling Roar, and maybe another magic level. But really, he is good enough without that, you have too many points in your lord anyway at this point.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Sorry, you wanted builds for 2500 K... I would use the same DP that I had in 2000 pts games and spend my points on something else instead - don't make him too juicy, he is a supporting unit, not a tank.
Also, the dangers of not having a lvl 4 wizard are very overrated. You can do fine in this edition without that - even without any wizards at all.
Last edited by Viktor; December 6th, 2010 at 09:31.
Well I don't have my book so I don't know exactly what you can get for 500pts, But the cost of a DP is over half that, and each magic level upgrade is more costly than that of the standard wizards. If you want higher magic level at least take Fury of the Blood God, The 2+ Wardsave against spells means people will rarely target it with magic. And turning whole units of missile troops and warmachines is harder in practice.
Wish I had experience to draw from but I haven't run a DP yet in 8th
Last edited by White Lightning; December 8th, 2010 at 02:02. Reason: Too much info
Repainting Orks not sure how many points yet
Warriors of Chaos shelved until further notice
Just a reminder dude, it's not a good idea to post the exact point costs of models/items/upgrades. I don't want to bust your chops, but doing so can get the forum in big legal trouble if GW decide to pursue recourse, which they will if people make it a habit. It wouldn't be a bad idea to edit your post so that you don't include the exact costs.
But ya, I am looking forward to hearing how the DP works for you guys. I am going home for the Xmas break and will probably use a DP in a couple battles. So if anyone uses one, let me know how it goes. Otherwise, I'll be posting up how he does for me. My main worry is that at 2000 points, where at DP becomes feasible, my friend is able to start fielding Teclis, which is going to be a serious pain in the rear. Does anyone have tips for a DP that would help him deal with Teclis? Maybe some spell and gift combos that would be beneficial?
In terms of Probs with Los there is a few things that can be done to help the big guy survive the inevitable shooting! Use monsterous models to give the dp -1 or 2 to hit and protection from cannon balls (unless he kills everything in its path!). Multiple wound models must be killed outright for the cannon ball to travel through (i.e a giant would need to take 6 wounds for a cannon ball to hit the dp behind it). No help against stone throwers but takes the edge off of alot you might face. Dp builds I think rely on total army build. I like the idea of a lvl 4 tzeentch dp with diabolic splendor in an army with a death back-up sorceror, bsb with doom totem and 2 hellcannons. if you are lucky to get doom and darkness with pandemonium then you can potentially panic entire armies off the board! All that is do-able in 2500. Teclis ain't immune to psychology!
There have been lots of discussions about this in the past. Here's the common thoughts-
1. Daemon Princes are only worth it in lower point games, where you can't afford to take both a Combat Lord, and a Sorcerer Lord.
2. If you do run him, you're better off running him Tzeentch, to benefit from a 4++. This will boost his survivability.
3. If you don't go Tzeentch, run either Shadows or Death. Best lores for L4, and Shadows will help debuff the enemy and keep him alive longer. You may want to consider Third Eye, in hopes of stealing Lore of Life. We can cast every spell except regrowth, and use the Lore Attribute to regain a wound on the DP. If you go Death, hope for The Purple Bowling-Ball of Xerxeus, so you can roll it down one flank.
4. The best Gift options are: Mantle of Chaos/Tendrils of Tzeentch, Fury of the Blood God, Third Eye of Tzeentch
5. The best bet is to fly him around as a flanker. His Stomp makes him dangerous enough in combat, but he can't face most "ranked" regiments on his own. Spend the first turn or two in cover, then either hit the warmachines, or flank into a combat where you've already caught the enemy in the front.
When I ran him, I'd usually field an L2 or two in my Hero section, to balance out the loss of magic of a designated L4 (your DP will usually be out of position for much casting). With a L3 Tzeentchian, you'll still want your Shadow spells at the very least, so a L2 with Conjoined Haemonculus and a Spell Familiar is usually a safe bet.
Big C - I run the army that you're talking about, but without the DP. I go with Diabolic Splendour on a regiment of Wailing Banner Chosen. The tactic works well enough, but don't sink that much effort into it. It does NOTHING against Daemons or Undead, and it gets risky against Elves and Dwarfs (high leadership, good anti-magic). 8th seems to have become a game where there's a single block of enemy soldiers, and then a bunch of popcorn units orbiting around it. You win the game if you kill that big block, and a lot of those blocks are Immune to Psych or Unbreakable or otherwise shielded from such an awesome ploy as -5Ld Panic Checks.
Never underestimate what a flyer can do with a breath weapon. Stream of corruption is amazing on a DP!
Also, I think that mantle of Chaos is not really worth the points. Most missiles will hurt him on sixes in this edition anyway - and those that don't are high str anyway, except maybe bolt throwers. No, I'd rather have those points for other gifts.
Diabolic splendor and soporific musk are not bad either. He forces a lot of leadership tests due to Terror.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Stream is an odd one. With it being One-Use-Only, you're not going to do a hideous amount of damage over the course of the game, even though you are certainly lining up some really nice shots. You could use the 2D6 hits to help you in combat though. 2D6 S3, 5 S5, D6 S5... potentially 23 kills. Either way, I try to stay away from One-Use-Only items and upgrades. I always either horde them and then never use them, or I use them early and kick myself for it later.
I see your point with the Mantle. That was always more of a Pinkus thing than it was mine. I've always just gone with MoT for the 4++ and then used my points to pick up Tendrils and the Haemonculus. Throwing Gateway on 6 dice with a reroll, and then adding a D3, can make people cringe.
With Soporific Musk, I don't bother with it, because he shouldn't be in combat alone anyways. With Swiftstride, we shouldn't have a hard time catching the enemy if our other regiment fails.
I Personally would only field daemon princes in 1500 point games With
Fury of the blood god
Stream of corruption
Mark of Tzeentch
I would only field them though unless i was taking a Chaos Giant or a Dragon Ogre shaggoth in an army as well because in 1500 points what will my opponent have to deal with them ? Ive used this For a few games and it works then at 2500 pt games ill field 2 of them ! 3500 pt games 3 of them etc