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Is it really necessary?
If so, how much?
If I run magic (I usually do) I have a lvl4 and usually a lvl2.
The reason for that is I want a BSB, so that leaves me limited points in the hero section (I usually play 2200). My latest setup is Lvl4 and a BSB.
I find a single lvl2 not enough. Its not worth the extra magic defense imo, and he'll probably not get a single spell through.
I have yet to try out a non magic list vs a magic heavy army.
What are your views on this subject?
I have been having a blast with my level 1 sorcerer [Tzeentch] with Third-Eye and dispell scroll.
The rest of my army is mostly units, and a BSB [who happens to have BoS]. My six-troll squad have completely replaced Knights by now.
I used to get MR items, but I just don't bother with them any more, and get more units.
Sona si Latine loqueris.
Well +2 to cast is enough for most spells with reasonable winds of magic. The BSB casts the default shadow spell at the end of the round.
I face Skaven, Demons, and Beastmen a lot and sometimes Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, and Vampire Counts.
Although I don't get to dominate a magic round like a level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer, I make up for it with troop numbers. Some opponents look very hard at the number of models I place on the board, but if they get upset, I let them see my list at the end of the game. Some of my armies can be upwards 90 models!
EDIT: The numbers come from 40 marauders with shields/LA/MoT and 10 hounds. The rest are Trolls and warriors, and a warshrine [which always buffs the marauders]. And yes, sometimes they die hard to hex magic - but they stand up very nicely against most units with a little help from Lore of Shadow. Last week they got T4 from the warshrine, and Mindrazor!
Last edited by Ascendo Tuum; December 16th, 2010 at 10:57.
Sona si Latine loqueris.
90 models? I supose you play with marauders, and my experience with them is that you can field lots of them, but they can´t hold anything and die fast fast fast. I've replaced them for warriors in my lists.
My rules for Magic in 8th:
1) Infernal Puppet: Never leave home without it. Just knowing this item is around will mess with magic heavy lists.
2) Third eye of Tzeech is an easy way to counter heavy offensive magic with a bit of your own (for cheaper). Putting this on a low level caster will allow you to throw the big bombs your opponent brings against you, but does not do much if they didn't bring any.
3)tzeech is my #1 pick for a mage/mage lord. Pandamonium is just too good to not bring. I often struggle in combat as i am almost constently against steadfast troops. Pandamonium with the Doom totem really helps to get them to fail steadfast tests. I don't think i need to mention the potential for miscasts with the puppet present . . . . .
If you do want to go magic heavy list, I tend to back it up with the hell cannon and focus mostly on hard foot troops. I take my time to get into combat as i can let magic and shooting whittle down the edge of sheer numbers so that when the weaklings close the distances, they are going tit-for-tat without the benifits of ranks or steadfast.
I find that most magic phases consist of only one or 2 spell attempts at the most desired spells, throwing lots of dice at it in hopes of getting double 6's. alot of armies have a way of increasing their Dispel dice pool, so if you don't get the Irresistable Force ur opponent has a 50/50 chance of shutting you down. With Tzeech, i save 1 little dice for last to cast flickering fire, as pandamonium, gateway and/or treason tend to scare most of the dice out of their pool.
However, I have learned that there are some interesting choices for exhulted heros to be casters now (with the ettera rules for the book of secrets), so alot of experimentation for unexpected magics.
I tend to agree, in 1k points I think you need to have a level 2, there are armies out there that can spam level 2 mages easily in 1k points and you need the magic defence.
The problem with this is that you don't have a 'killy' hero, fortunately, our unit champions and sorcerors do have decent stats and can handle a lot of other armies heros in combat anyway (especially those armies which can spam low level casters)
in my 1k list, i'm currently experimenting with a lvl 2 sorc of nurgle equipped with the charmed shield and the axe of khorne, for magic defence (+2 to dispell) and a bit of hitty power, there's also a warshrine in the list which will be buffing the warrior unit he sits in
As you increase in points, more magic is needed, at 1500, I'd probably take a level 3 (or 4) sorc, but probably not nurgle any more and a BSB
>2000 Id definitely be looking at a lvl 4, a lvl 2 and a BSB
Oh yeah, the last game i played was 2250 vs brettonians, he had 2 level 4 casters and 2 level 2 casters, I had a level 4 and a level 2 and stopped every dangerous spell
as a result of him going OTT with magic, the rest of his army suffered and he only had a few units of troops
Still leaving trolls at home and knights still winning me games.
As far as magic, lv4+lv2 works for me. Haven' tried to go without magic, because with the power familiar on the lv2, even bad winds of magic rolls still means I'm getting 1 spell off a turn and usually that's enough.
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In my opinion WoC isn't really about 'magic' per se. Our troops are dead hard and lethal as hell and when I create an army list I try to keep that in mind. That isn't to say we have weak magic, because we don't. Level two Tzeentch Sorcs are hardcore in their own right (and I *do* usually have one or two in my army) but overall I find tooled out Combat Lords to be more effective and more reliable than a Sorceror Lord.
As for how I run the above Sorcs (level 1 or 2) depends on my mood, but usually I tzeentch it up and try to have him/her/it make my enemies casting as uneventful as possible. Pandemonium, puppet, dispell/feedback scrolls etc (usually) will at least disrupt a magic heavy armies plans long enough for my far superior troops to get stuck in and wreak havoc.
We adherents of the dark gods are lucky (dare I say spoiled) to have so many worthwhile effective options in designing lists. We don't *have* to run magic heavy like some armies, but it's nice to always have the option, and ultimately it's personal preference. If you wanna roll magic, then by all means go for it.
Oh, and in my last game I ran Trolls instead of Knights - They weren't bad, but I gotta side with Pinkus on this one, my Knights are still my game changers.
Lord Busey see's all.
@sgtinvincible@ Really, WoC don't need combat characters. As soon as we reach combat, it's over anyways. But when it comes to magic and shooting, I'm holding my breath every time the Skaven player rolls for curse of the horned rat.
Screw the spray gun. I paint my own models!