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  1. #1
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Beating Steadfast: Whats your Trick?

    I've been noticing a trend in most of the games I play where my CC units get ground out of the game. In the first few rounds, most of my units will win close combat without worry. However, because everyone else are so much wimpier than chaos and cost less, they almost always outnumber me and steadfast to stick around. Once i get locked into combat, it's only a matter of time until someone gets hit in the flank and the wins start turning into losses. I've tried making my units bigger, but then there is just less of them and the movement phase becomes really tricky.

    I'm having a hard time figuring out how to overcome these problems. with the new rules for flanking, I'll never negate ranks. I've tried upping the killing power of units to carve thru the ranks faster, but then I end up taking more casualties and it balances out.

    So far I've had a little luck with pandemonium + the doom totem, trying to offset the benefits of steadfast by crippling base leaderships. This has worked very well for the most-part, however there is no guarantee that i will roll pandemonium, or that I can keep the Doom totem in LoS. Even then, to maintain both for 6 turns can be quite the challenge.

    Typically we play 2200pts. I'll bring a lord choice, a BSB and another Hero. I like to bring 1 mage and he will always have the puppet.

    Typically my troops will include some of the following:

    Warriors w/ banner of rage
    Knights
    Dragon Ogres
    Hellcannon
    Recently, Throgg+Trolls

    I will bring 1 or 2 marader/marader horsemen units, but they are never really a focus or priority. While they are cheap and easy to bring large units, i find the larger sized bases (of typical hordeish models) make them very awkward to use (7th edition i mostly played woodelves. I make more mistakes than I'd like).


    So, has anyone out there noticed a similar problems out in the field, and if so what is your approach to dealing with steadfast units? Are there some tricks to try, units to bring, or items that can't be ignored? In the last game I played in, I managed to use some terrain to my advantage, but haven't had the time to really look at all the rules for all the terrain that is available (since the terrain itself is not always available).


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  3. #2
    (Un)Official LO Map Maker Cannibal God's Avatar
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    Sadly, I've got the same problems as you, and haven't yet figured out how to beat this. I'm usually against Skaven. I've found that Pandaemonium does work, but it isn't efficient enough to always rely on it, though it does increase your chances. I guess you either raise the damage you're putting out, or invest in some flanking units. Wish I could help more.
    If someone helps you, rep them.
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  4. #3
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    Ever thought of the damnably cheap marauders? Get a unit of.. I don't know.. 30? in ranks of 5 and let them help a killy chaos warrior unit in combat. The marauders will be there to provide ranks to negate the enemy steadfast when the enemy ( surely ) loses a round.

  5. #4
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    The Beardede One is right on the money, Marauders are very cheap and really only work well in groups over 30, MoT with shields/light_armour will create a great anvil.

    Against Skaven, I just use third eye and turn his own plague magic against him, which works better when the enemy controls it anyway.

    I think Throgg + Trolls is an awesome infantry crusher, breath weapon, fear, stomp, mutent regen, so many nice things to use against a mob.

    I think your problem lies in focusing on lowering their leadership. There really is no need, if you are losing units too quickly then use shields/MoT and lower their toughness/strength with lore of shadow, or try mindrazor on AHW/Khorne warriors, not much can survive that.

    Have you tried charging in with your hellcannon? Terror and Thunderstomp, scary stuff for massed infantry.
    Sona si Latine loqueris.

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    I haven't really come across this problem, though I haven't really fought a proper horde army, I suppose. But when I face massed infantry who bog me down, and then I get hit in the side, my Warriors usually chew through the flanking unit as well, so I guess that's my solution. Hellcannon'd be a good idea, I've been having a lot of success with Kholek Suneater.
    +++XENOS SPOTTED+++ thrilling battles within the Vitorina subsector: http://xenosspotted.blogspot.com/

  7. #6
    (Un)Official LO Map Maker Cannibal God's Avatar
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    One that is Bearded, is correct, yet sadly I don't use marauders in my army. I want a chaos army with everything in chaos armour only ('cept for hounds, the armour wouldn't fit on anyway!). Any ideas on other ways to get around those ranks?

    Trolls would definitely be interesting.
    If someone helps you, rep them.
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  8. #7
    Drill Sergeant Lord Borak's Avatar
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    In my Maruaders I don't really have trouble. With Marauder units 5 wide and 6 deep most people won't be beating them on ranks. Chucking in an Exalted Hero will help them top up the kills to reliably beat an opponent into submission.


    In my Warriors, I don't really have a problem with Steadfast. Warrior units usually kill horde troops so fast Steadfast only keeps them in place for a single round, two if they're exceptionally lucky!!. I've routed units of 50 Peasants/Skaven/Goblins in 2 rounds of Combat. At the end of the day, don't worry about it. If you're in combat you're doing your job.
    Don't get sucked into trying to make your warrior units bigger. Bigger isn;t always better with Chaos. With Warriors your paying for attacks and if you've got models not making attacks then it's wasted points. At 2k I have units of 12 Warriors. I'd rather have 4 units of 12 plus supporting units than 2 units of 24.


    If you are having trouble knocking out Steadfast units then take out the enemy Battle Standard and/or General. Most Horde troops have low Leadership so on an Average roll will be breaking, even on their stubborn Leadership. 50 Goblins maybe steadfast but they're only LD5 or 6 without a character. Pandemonium (Tzeentch spell) is great for this as well.
    Last edited by Lord Borak; January 11th, 2011 at 17:25.

  9. #8
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    I've mangled pretty much every horde I've faced - I'm evens vs Skaven (when they won their dice were on the money, mine weren't) and have generally slaughtered VC Ghoul Hordes (generally avoiding the Grave Guard Horde...).

    My Khorne and Slaanesh Warriors have both gone toe-to-toe with hordes and destroyed them. Most horde units are only hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's, followed by your 3+ save. Despite churning out 30+ attacks (usually a bit less unless you have a wide frontage), the amount of damage they do is quite light. The 15+ attacks Chaos Warriors send back (be they Khorne or no) will usually inflict 6 or 7 wounds on an enemy with little or no save.

    Steadfast can be a problem, but unless you've taken massive casualties beforehand, Chaos warriors can usually win a war of attrition.

    (Although my solution to anything is Chaos Warriors. If that doesn't work...Chaos Knights. If that doesn't work...run away)


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  10. #9
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the great replies, keep em comming guys!

    I hear alot of support for maraders, so i'm thinking that perhaps the problems I have with them is myself and not the unit itself. Still getting used to the new rules for charging, and using ranked troops is still kinda wierd for me. So, practice practice practice.

    I typically like my Warriors to be about 20 models in size. This gives them enough to absorb sghooting/magic damage and remain at top CC performance. I agree that units too large can pose more of a risk than a benifit. So many big nuke spells now make larger units a danger. Is 20 to high? Should I stay closer to 15? I don't like spreading out too many units, as the cost of command+marks can really add up.

    I would agree that being in combat is where Chaos should be, however the problem I have is staying in combat too long. Sure I can whittle units down over 2-5 rounds of combat, and indeed I do just that. But the problem comes from staying stationary too long, it gives my opponent a chance to move into position to deal with the unit properly once it's finally broken the enemy. It has happened too many times to count now, where I have sat in combat for 2-3 turns and had my unit redced to 1/2 strenth, only to become engaged with another unit that is fresh and able to grind *me* out. I will be winning the game from turns 1-3, but around 5 or 6 it all just falls apart as my 20 man units are now down to 3 or 4 models.

    Also, I like to run my warriors for offences mostly, so either Halbrds or AhW. I do sometimes bring shields but haven't really taken to them. It seems alot of people here like the shields so is that the way to go?
    A few other responses:

    Throgg + trolls is just nasty. Yes it is really good at what it does, they can take out weedy infantry and elite infantry with equal ease. However it's expensive, and not exactly nice. The warhammer circles are small, and if you have a rep for using something like this, then expect to face alot of fire magic and the like. I don't want to overplay this unit as it can also be really un-fun to go against.

    I don't like using the Hellcannon for combat. T6 unbreakable is nasty, but I don't think that is worth it. The damage output just isn't enough to win, and sheer numbers of attacks will work their way thru it. I've lost a Hellcannon and a treeman to Dark elf repeater crossbow fire alone. Also, once I moved up the hellcannon to protect flanks, and it failed rampage and charged an ogre dude with the tenderizer. . . .. that was the fastest it's ever died.

    also: It is hard NOT to have success with Kholek. He is just 8 kinds of nasty. Unfortunatly 605 is too high for a 2200pt game, and even when he is leagel he's 25% of your army. .

  11. #10
    Favored of Tzeentch Viktor's Avatar
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    I think units of Warriors should be run with a frontage of 6. I run them 6x3 for a total of 18 models, which is usually a good number.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
    Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks

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