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Hi, yesterday I played two games at 2000pts against high elves and I got beat both times. I was wondering if anyone can help me solve a few problems Iím having when facing HE.
Sorcerer lord level 4
Mark of Tzeentch
Talisman of preservation
Stream of corruption
Mark of Khorne
Collar of Khorne
15 x Chaos warriors
Musician and Standard bearer
Banner of rage
15x chaos warriors
additional hand weapon
musician and standard bearer
10 x Marauder horsemen
5 x Chaos Knights
musician and standard bearer
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
Additional hand weapon
HE: not too sure
Armour that gives 2+ armour save
Some talisman that gives 4+ward save and re-rollable armour save
2 x mages
Law of metal
One gets to pick his own spells the other has a dispel scroll
50 x Sea guard
15x dragon princes
1. Horsemen just got shot to pieces, did nothing in both games
2. Rbt can volley shot which he did, which killed my lord in the second game on turn one, I might in future hide him behind other units until Iíve taken the rbt out. But then heíll just kill my knights.
3. My magic didnít really seem to do much damage either, however in the 1st game I believe hit helped just have a level 4 for the dispels.
however my main problems are:
1. Nothing I have can with stand a charge from the unit of dragon prices, been able to re-roll to hit is too much at strength 5, with 2 attacks each.
2. His lord is unbelievably hard to kill, and hits back hard too.
3. His mages either reduce the armour saves of my knights or use searing doom to kill them. Knights and exalted pretty much did nothing either.
Has anyone else had similar problems with High Elves?
any help would be great thanks
P.s. the Shaggoth was great! used him with a additional hand weapon in the first game and a great weapon in the second. Thunderstomp just makes he so powerful now. was wondering if he takes a great weapon does he get thunderstomp at str 8 or 6?
Couple things i would change are
1. Drop stream of corruption on your lord and give him and enchanted shield so he has a 1+ armour and 3+ ward
2. I would honestly not put the exalted on jugernaught, just keep him on foot, give him armour of meteoric iron (1+ save) and dawnstone (lets you re-reroll failed armour saves) with a halbred, this way your always strength six with a 1+ rerollable armour.
3. I would give your nights mark or nurgle and the banner of rage, a 5+ ward to shooting is not half as effective as minus one to hit
4. I would reccomend dropping your chaos warriors to 12 men because 15 gives you to many wasted attacks, and twelve will do the same damage in combat as 15, i would also reccomend giving them mark of nurgle, halbreds and shields. Again minus one to hit with shooting is huge, while frenzying or giving extra hand weapons is a waste because your just losing attacks in the back ranks.
5. I would drop the shaggoth for more marauders with hand weapon, shield, and mark of tzeentch, approximately a thirthy man block, 5+ parry is just too good to pass up, also if the dragon princes hit them, they are a good tarpit because he most likely won't be able to take out enough to take a away steadfast, which will then allow you to conunter charge into his flank.
6.Make your exalted a bsb, the rerolling all leadership tests is again too good to pass up, throw him in the marauders for the kills from the hero, with the static combat res of the unit
7. Add third eye of tzeentch to your wizard allowing you to steal one of his wizards spells and use it against him, like the 6th spell from metal on the sea guard, or minus on armour on his dragon princes is huge.
8. After all of these change you are left with 363 points to spend i would reccomend spending it on marauder horsemen to run up the flanks and go after his warrmachines, vanguard gives you the free 12 inch move before the game, so theses would help out alot. Take two units of 5 with khorne, flails, and a musician in each.
9. This leaves you with 141pts to do with what you like.
Hope these suggestions i made help, let me know how your next game turns out,
Last edited by Billy; January 16th, 2011 at 19:40.
I don't know if you guys allow special characters, but here's the easiest fix for this:
Swap your L4 for Shadows, and then pick up the special character Festus. Festus will give a regiment a 5+ regen, as well as knowing the spell Curse of the Leper. Lore of Shadows has two spells which drop the HE S/T by D3, down to 1. Festus can then drop that 1 to a 0, and kill every model with no saves allowed.
The downside is that you'll then be introduced to Teclis, who is a cheese fest. So it's probably best to stick to the "no special characters allowed" rule, and beat him conventionally.
(Note that the Shadows/Leper trick is still legal, and can be done with a plain Nurgle Sorc as well)
This guy tailors his list. Nobody in their right mind takes Lore of Metal, unless they know that they're up against armor. My response to that would involve 2 possible things. Either tell him that you're facing him with a different army, and see what he does. Or- if you can't dupe him- invest in Marauders with MoK. Can't scorch your armor if you're not wearing any. And you'll outnumber his LSG 2:1.
Otherwise, play different opponents for a while and gently remind him that you have to pick your lores when you write your army list. Then offer to play sometime against the last 2000pt list he used- metal should be gone, or he should have ammassed quite a losing streak.
Now, for addressing your problems:
1. Horsemen: remember to deploy enough terrain on the table. You should have an average of 7-8 pieces on the board. You can use this for cover, and you aren't obligated to make your Vanguard move. This should keep some of that shooting off your back. At 2500pts, I play with a similar regiment, but I'm aware that they're going to be shot to bits or otherwise never survive for a full game. You could always split the regiment in half, providing more attacks and more targets for him to shoot at.
2. Sniping: you need to stay in your units. That's why I suggest dropping the disc. For your Knights- Blasted and MoT will stop most of that incoming fire in its tracks. 1+/4++, absolutely!
3. Tzeentch never does much damage. Unless you have Treason or Gateway. Treason is fun- you'll see about half of his LSG unit disintigrate before your very eyes. Otherwise, use Shadows to boost your guys while debuffing his.
1. 15DPs will send 20S5's forward, hitting you on 4's. That means that 15 of those are going to hit you (after rerolls). He wounds on 3's, which means that 10 of those wound. Your armor is at a 5+, so you're taking 6.7 wounds, and your 5++ Parry will drop that to a further 4.5 wounds.
That's average rolling, against your Tzeentchians. You should do 1.6 wounds in return. Oh yes, you'll lose combat. For this reason, consider putting the Rapturous Standard on your unit, and possibly even adding 5 models to the regiment.
You only need to hang in there for the first round though, because after that, the tables are turned drastically. Suddenly he's wounding you on a 5+ because he loses his lances, and then you're still wounding him on 3's. You'll eventually grind right through his regiment. The important thing is making sure that he doesn't get to charge you. You can do this by baiting him with your units, or tricking him.
The same goes for his Prince, who is really relying on getting the charge. Of course, on the back of a chariot, he's forced to accept challenges, so you could always just build a character specifically to beat him (Helm of Eyes will negate his rerolls).
Next game you play, try to let him deploy first. He only has 3 units, so you can bait him out with your units (might be worth getting a unit of hounds just for that reason). Put down your Shaggoth in the middle of the board, then your Khorne Warriors on one flank. By now he should have his Knights and LSG down (iirc, Warmachines are a single drop, like characters). If not, deploy your Knights next, on the other side of your Shaggoth. Then deploy the rest of your army in a corner.
This will leave him with a long walk for his LSG (all the while, you're trying to blast him with spells) and probably 1 of his RBTs out of range. When his knights move foward to attack you, you have your Fast Cav and Knights who can try to intercept him. Try to charge him first, and aim for the flanks. You want to have your Cavalry a bit further forward than your infantry. Having characters in your Infantry regiments will make them juicier targets and help motivate him to go after them. If you have to, you could always send a regiment forward as a suicide squad, to bait him into charging them (Fast Cav are good at that).
Another trick you could try would be to drop a Warrior regiment for a horde of Marauders with MoT and put your Blasted Standard on a BSB in their unit. He can't shoot them, and if you give them GWs, they'll rip through his cavalry regiment as well. WS3 will still hit his knights on 4's, and a Horde will put forward 21 attacks and wound on 2's with GWs. You just want to make sure that you hold in combat...
BTW: you stomp at your base strength, so just S6 if you have a GW.
How are you playing the dragon princes? Do bear in mind that the second rank only supports with a single attack each, so depending on how wide he runs them, you're facing about 15-16 attacks (and yes, they will hurt unless you can get the charge on him.). Perhaps drop the sorcerer lord and get a level 2 support mage with either a scroll or perhaps a puppet. I'd try and tarpit his princes, perhaps with a lord of tzeentch, disc, crown of command, talisman of preservation, dragon helm and a halberd. This gives you a 2+ as, 3+ ward save, 2+ against fire attacks (ie lore of metal), he's stubborn on ld 9, has 5 str 6 attacks and the princes or whatever he charges lose their rerolls on asf due to him being Ini 7 (apart from the prince). You should be able to get the charge on him, robbing him of his str bonus on lances, leaving him with str 3. Do bear in mind I haven't actually tested this in games as I love magic to much to not bring a level 4 But you end up spending 360'ish points holding up at least 500pts of his, depending on wheter he brings a magic banner on princes or not
Warrriors I usually run in units of 12 or 18, depending on points and the role for the unit. But in general, running warriors 6 wide is working great for me so far. 18 warriors with MoT and a shield is a lovely anvil. 12 warriors with MoK, shields and halberds work a treat as well.
I'd ditch the marauder horsemen for something else as they're going to die to pretty fast, even in close combat. This being said, I haven't quite figured out how to use my marauder horsemen yet, so if they work for you, go ahead and use them. I guess the vanguard move should be able to give his reapers something to worry about, seeing as he won't have much to protect them against a flank attack. I'd perhaps consider using 2 groups of 5 though, with either MoK as you run them, or perhaps MoS to keep them in the fight if he shoots them and don't kill them all. Of course, this leaves you vulnerable to his shooting with them. I'd perhaps consider using dogs to threaten them instead. If he shoots your dogs, well, those 30 points have been well spent keeping the rest of the army safe.
Finally, there's the option of a hellcannon, that str 5 template will murder his large block of seaguards
Oh and as Billy mentions, I'd also consider dropping the juggernaught, even though it pains me to say so (lovely model). Also, his advice on mark of nurgle with banner of rage is also sound (even if he might no be entirely correct on MoN vs MoT, it all depends on how and what your opponent is shooting you with). But if your opponent uses volley, then MoN is a good choice.
Edit: Cap. Sar: Smack yourself instead, this is 8th, there's no such thing as slots anymore THat being said, I agree, the HE players list is a bit silly
Last edited by Zarb; January 16th, 2011 at 20:26.
Alright well first tings first he is not cheating because high elves elite army rule changed so they can take double the normal amount of a single rare or special, so he cam have to 4 bolt throwers. Lore of tzeentch is definetly worth taking especially on a disc, you can cstay behind his dragon princes just roaring and using gateway, it is definetly worth it. Also the disc gets a 1+/3++ so hes relatively safe from shooting. I agree with the comment on the warriors, although i believe mark of nurgle and banner of rage is far more effective, charging into a unit with 15 str 5 ws5 attacks is always worth it, especially when his shooting need to roll higher to hit. I just don't like wasting points on chaos warriors that sit in the back rank just to look pretty, you pay 17 points a model for fighting, not for soaking up damge, that's what maruders are for. Other than that i agree with captain sarthai completely.
Thank you very much for your replies and advice. I don't have my army books with me at the monement but when i do i'll write a new list, making some changes that you've suggested.
Just a few other things, he normally sets 2 rbt in the middle of the boad and then puts the dragon princes and sea guard either side with his prince and the other rbt on the sides. so his flanks are protected sort of.
He never moves apart from maybe a few inches forward so that he makes sure he's in range for shooting and magic. Wont charge till he has to.
We normally just play on the floor and don't use scenery but i'll make sure we do next time.
Playing with no scenery like that against ANY army with shooting is just asking for a kicking. Imagine if he had an Empire army or worse, Dwarves! Play with terrain, lots of it. ANd don't let his fancy special rules trouble you that much. Dragon Princes in a big block like that are a waste of points in my view. You need to worry about the RBTs, mage and combat units in that order. Unlike any other armies WoC will face, you KNOW you are getting bloody teeth when facing HE infantry, key is that you can win a war of attrition more easily with superior armour, shields on all your units or cheaper units.
High Elves are tough, and you are making it much tougfher playing to their strengths (a high BS weapon that can kill your lord, magic that can crush the opponent). As for magic. Capt - is selection of the magic deck part of the list building exercise or at army selection? As I see no reason to not select LoM if I know I'm facing armoured enemies. In fact LoM is pretty useful against most units that Elves have trouble dealing with - flaming attacks are useful, the roll AS to wound deals with heavy cavalry that few units apart from White Lions or monsters can deal with well.
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The book says "When you chose your army", you should be marking down the lore that each caster has. That's been a rule in tournaments for a long time, and they finally implemented it for generic play in 8th. The way that I understand it, is that they're trying to make sure that you don't take Lore of Metal when facing Chaos, and switching to Lore of Fire for fighting off Hordes. Alternatively, think of it as buying a 'Chaos Sorcerer of Shadows' instead of a 'Chaos Sorcerer of Metal' for example- as though they're two separate unit choices.
Billy- MoN or MoT is questionable to me. Statistically, MoN is only better against shooting by a few tenths of a percent, but it certainly costs more to equip your troops with. In combat, it will work against his WS6 Dragon Princes (forcing them to hit on 4's now) but will have no affect on his WS5 Seaguard. We have a very high WS, and Nurgle only helps with WS6 (rare) and WS3. Nurgle also does nothing to help in the magic phase, which seems to be the most frustrating part of the ranged game.
Zarb- good point about the 15-16 attacks rather than 20 to the front. I'd hate to tell his friend this, but against Warriors (and anyone for that matter) I'd drop those DPs to 14 and go 7x2 for a total of 21 attacks. Either way, it's now almost certain that he'll be dealing less than 5 wounds. There are still "slots" though, as you can only duplicate a unit so many times. The HE "Elite Army" rule do make things quite silly in that regard, but hey- that's what I get for not remembering my own armybook.
Zarb does have a point- Billy's suggestions freed up plenty of points which you could use to turn your Shaggy into a big angry Cannon. The Hellcannon is definitely better at Close-combat than it is at range, but the shooting attack is pretty nice. Forcing a Panic at -1ld isn't bad, and dropping that Pie-plate onto his LSG every turn can be fun. The downside is that he's going to start flinging RBT single-bolts at it (no saves, multiple wounds), so you're going to want to keep it in cover and at range. Otherwise, it's actually better against shooting than the Shaggy is, since it has a 4+ and the handlers essentially give you a 5+ ward until you fail it 3 times.
You need to be playing with terrain. That's all I'll say about that. If you're willing to deal with Special Characters, Wulfrik could help with his lack of movement. I've used him to kill off plenty a High Elf, even when they fielded Teclis. You can force him to accept challenges, and 'mark' him at the start of the game so that you get massive boosts to your stats when fighting him. I've never had a problem showing up behind Elves with 30 angry naked guys and doing dirty things to Teclis and his regiment. Problem is, until he shows up, you're at Teclis's mercy in the magic phase...
I would definitely suggest a hellcannon. They work wonders for me against elves. After a single hit - not even wound - that block of sea guard or DPs might break and run for the hills. Add doom and darkness and the banner of -1ld to all w/in LOS and they're probably going to run, at the very least preventing a turn of shooting/charging. It's also going to wound elves on 2s, as well as negating all armour on the infantry.
I would also suggest hel of many eyes or sword of swift slaying for the exalted. He then strikes before most elves, negating their ASF. Shadows is also good against elves as they only nd -1 initiative to get no rerolls against warriors, and the signature spell does just that. My favourite combo of all, though, is a shadows wizard and festus. If you get the -s or -t spell of shadows you can get the elves down to 1 of either stat. Then you use curse of the leper them, which festus gets automatically, and the entire unit is instantly dead. Quick, relatively reliable and utterly diabolical elvish death.