Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hello Warhammer Fantasy community!
I used to play Night elves and have switched over to chaos. I mainly play against VC and LM. I was wondering if I can get some suggestions/help on constructing battle lists which are effective against these two armies. Also tactics would be great too...considering I can never kill the VC Vargulf.
This is what I have to work with:
1x Khornelord on Juggernaut
2x Chaos lords
1x Chaos Sorcerer
24x Chaos Warriors
10x War hounds
1x Dragonogre Shaggoth
1x Chaos Giant
Against Vampire Counts
Vampires have Killing Blow, so equiping the right armor helps a lot. We have two typees that can resist it.
Try very hard to challenge and Kill his Vampire ASAP.
VC armies often come in hordes, never panic, and are immune to psychology. This makes MoK very handy on our warriors with halberds.
Chaos Knights of Khorne are handy vs. the etheral units VC can field, since they have magic weapons.
- Use all your warriors 2 blocks of 12, one AHW, one Halberds.
- Don't bother with Marauders, 20 just isn't enough.
- Shaggoth could be very nice with AHW, I suspect
- Lore of Shadow is a pretty versitile magic.
- Exalted on Jugg should be fine:
- Sorcerer of Shadow Level III
Talisman of Preservation
- Hounds can be really handy for flank charges.
Lizardmen are always a bit tricky, tough & good magic [but low INI!].
- Get a cheap level 1 sorcerer with Third Eye and steal all his awesome magic spells.
- Outfit a Lord and put him in a nasty Tzeentch knight unit with Banner of Rage.
Collar of Khorne
- Warriors again [MoT/Shields]
- Hounds again
- Giant with MoS maybe [reroll to hit against their poor INI!]
Give that a try
Sona si Latine loqueris.
Magic is a VC players biggest friend and worst enemy. His army pretty much relies on it to replenish his units and to actually kill you. If you nulify his ability to do this then you've as good as won.
However, VC have alot of sneaky tricks up their sleeves when it comes to this oh so important phase. If I were you I'd concentrate on stopping the spells that hurt your units and let him move his units (van hels).
Any dice he uses to replenish his units just ignore unless you have spare Dispell dice. He can also raise unts of Zombies, and quite quickly make a unit of 40 or so zombies for free. Just dispell the initial 'raise dead' spell. If you don't don't worry they're only zombies and can't touch you in combat.
Lore of Shadows!! It's great. Against VC you probably don't need it. Skellies, zombies and Graveguard are pretty abysmal in combat compared to you. You don't need to lower their stats to beat them, although every little helps I suppose.
Tzeentch is always good. Pandemonium is great for disrupting his casting
Right, on to units. A unit of 12 or so Warriors is always a good place to start. Give these boys halberds, Mark of Khorne and the Flaming Banner. This will anhilate his units on combat. Flaming attacks ignore Regenerate so any GraveGuard with that Regenerate Banner or Vargulfs coming your way will bounce off easy as you please.
Shaggoth is good with 2 hand weapons. With stomp he'll rake in some kills quickly. See if you can send this guy after his general. It should make him a bit worried at the very least. Remember he's a support unit. Use him to help out units in combat, not take on enemy units on his own.
Hounds. They're great for getting in the way and leading his Blood Knights astray but other than that don't expect them to do much. LD5 doesn't do well against a fear causing army.
Borak gave some good advice for fighting against the Undead. Lizardmen are my primary opponent though, and I'm very familiar with the amount of "ouch power" they can put out.
Things to worry about with the Lizards:
1. BIG monsters- getting hit with a Stegadon hurts. Getting hit with a Stegadon with a Warspear on his back hurts more (2D6+1 S6 Impact, 4S6 attacks, D6 S6 Stomps = ~10 wounds). You also need to watch out for Carnosaurs (if they don't field a slann) and Kroxigors. Basically, lots of High Toughness, High Strength, decently armored nasties to contend with.
2. Ridiculous Magic- whenever I rate the armies, I actually place Lizardmen higher than Warriors because of this one fact: they can take Lore of Life and we can't. This means that any smart Lizardmen player is going to have access to probably all of the Lore of Life spells. The worst that I've seen is a Slann who is immune to all mundane attacks, has access to all of Lore of Life, and gets +1 dice with each of his casting attempts.
3. Did I mention that their troops are identical to ours, but carry spears and have a lower Ini? Saurus can really hold up a regiment of Warriors without much trouble. Where we get 15A, they get 20. They have the same basic save, the same strength and toughness, and better leadership. Yep- be jealous.
So how do I beat these over-sized iguanas?
1. Big Monsters- big monsters hate 2 things: initiative checks, and poisoned attacks. There are three lores which work well with Ini-based damage; Shadows, Death, and Nurgle. Shadows gives you access to Pit of Shades, while Death gives you Purple Sun, and Nurgle has Cloying Quagmire. Any of these will have Lizardmen screaming cheese. We don't have any way to get Poisoned attacks without a Special Character, but sticking Festus into a regiment with lots of attacks (2xHW MoK Chosen w/ +1A EotG roll) will usually keep them at bay for a while. Just make sure to charge the Stegadons, rather than viceversa, thus denying him his Impact Hits.
2. Crazy Magic - I usually approach this 2 ways. First, taking the Infernal Puppet works wonders. Always be sure to stop "Throne of Vines". Most Lizardmen players are very spoiled by this spell, which negates the chances of a Miscast and boosts their other Life spells. It's a RiP, which gives you 2 chances to halt it, but always try to get rid of it in their phase. Making a Slaan vulnerable to Miscasts when you have a Puppet floating around can be game-breaking. Let their little stuff go: Awakening of the Wood isn't too scary. Regrowth is iffy too, since it will (at best) bring back D6+1 models. Depending on the target and whether it's in combat or not, I usually let this one go. Dwellers is scary, as it will kill 1/3 of a Warriors regiment and about half of anything else- stop Dwellers. If they try to augment their stuff, treat it like Regrowth- if you can stop it later, or if it doesn't matter now, let it go through.
The Third Eye is also pretty cool. Grabbing Throne of Vines on your own caster will make him immune to Miscasts as well, even with his 'natural' lore. Slamming Dwellers back into a regiment can be fun too, especially since Shadows and Nurgle can both drop the Strength of an enemy. Reducing a Slann to S1 and then forcing him to take a Strength Check can really make them mad.
3. Saurus are a pain. I know, but try to play your strengths on this one. We hit like a ton of bricks and usually our regiments are on par or better than theirs. Halberds can really make a dent in a Saurus regiment, but the big one that I've been making use of, is Lore of Shadows. Suddenly they have T2 Saurus, or S2 Saurus, or I'm swinging with S8. Whatever you want to do. I can knock down the WS, I can pick them apart and turn a 4+ roll into a 5+ or even 6+ roll, and consequently turn my own rolls into 2+ and 3+. Shadows is an amazing lore.
But what if he locks you out in the magic phase: firstly, this is rare. Lizardmen don't have much in the way of anti-magic, even with the big scary frog on the table. Their casters are just plain horrid in combat, so I never even bother to field Lords or Exalteds beyond my BSB. If they come at me with a Combat Character, they're misallocating their points and making my job easier.
But lets say you're rolling terribly- there are a few things that can help you to beat them down even without magic. Like I said- Halberds are good to have, and so is Poison if you have Festus. You can always flank them (they usually don't have more units than you) and you can send in your own monsters. Giants are fun, Shaggoths are cool too, since the LM don't offer much shooting that really scares a Shaggoth (watch for Stegadon shooting though). Hellcannons are hilarious though. I love these things, because they tend to just wreck whatever combat they get involved in.
Big regiments of MoK Marauders with GWs can also do the trick. Face it- the Lizardmen hold well in combat. Against Warriors, it turns into a war of attrition. But against Marauder Hordes, we can actually smash forward with more attacks than they do, hitting on the same 4+ that they do, wounding on the same 3+ that they do, and if we go Tzeentch: saving on the same 6+ that they do. The difference is that we have more freakin guys! Like, 3:1 more guys.
My 2500pt list for taking on LM has looked a lot like this lately:
L4 w/ Shadows, Puppet, Preservation
L2 w/ Third Eye
15 Warriors w/ HW&S, MoT
15 Warriors w/ HW&S, MoT
12 MCav w/ MoK, Flails
30 Marauders w/ MoK, GWs
18 Chosen w/ Halberds, MoT, Favor, Wailing Banner, (gunning for +1A)
It's been doing well. It's also a great all'rounder, and can do a number on most Vampire armies (Wulfrik marks the Vamp, comes in behind him, and forces him to accept the Challenge- goodbye Vamp).
a few quick pointers as i don't have the time atm to read all the replies entirely.
Against VC: I dissagrtee that 3rd eye is a good thing to take as you can't use his raising spells. I would opt for either tzeech (pandimonium), fire, or lots of nurgal. In 7th edition i had some decent results by spamming the #1 spell from nurgle at his vampires. the idea is if you spam single wounds on the vampires enough eventually they will die. however the new edition this may not work the same, for better or worse.
Troop choices: warriors all around should be fine. his skellitons can't really hurt you and you should deal enough damage to win combat each time. as long as you can stop him from raising guys back from the dead you should crumble units withing 2-3 rounds of combat.
Regarding vargulf: he's not so hard to deal with. one casting of flickering fire can be enough. Other then that, he has no static combat res so as long as you can beat him in combat he should die pretty ffast (again assuming he doesn't put the wounds back on with magic).
This is a little trickier. you 100% need a mage or 2 of nurgle and hope for quagmire. I can't count the number of stegadon's this spell has killed for me, but trust me it is alot.
LM is one of the few armies that nurgle is a good mark for. The sarus warriors will normally hit on 4s, but 5s vs nurgle. also helps against the fricking double tapping ranged poison attacks from skinks (if he has to hit on 7's he loses poison, so often he will not double tap, or move closer than he should be). The slann is really the worst thing he has, and there is no way to deal with him easily. You could try a feedback scroll for when he tries to drop bombs with lots of dice, or lots of casters for more channeling. I like to bring tzeech mage along for pandimonium, but even that isn't a sure thing as slanns can push the misscasts off onto you. Mostly though, he will beat you in magic every time so you have to play that phase extra smart and defensive. dispel his raises and damages as he casts them, and let the RiP spells go and dispell them during your magic phase.
Troops: gear them defensivly. Not only do lizardmen have similar stats (4s4t2a), good armour (with their damn scales), and decent SCR, but they are also hard as bawls to break/panic, thanks to their cold blooded nature. Combat almost always comes down to a grindfest and they are quite capible of grinding out warriors over time. Halberds are decent for taking out the temple gaurd, but it is risky without the parry.
Thanks for all of the info, I did not know the new rule book provided a vast amount of magic items in conjunction with the army books. Also, generally I run a 2k point game, should I stick with just one Lord choice and one hero choice and use the rest of the points to bolster my units?
Van Hel's can be dangerous if in combat, should he have a Helm of Commandment. That makes his WS1/2 units turn into the WS of the Vamp! A unit of skeles with Van Hel's and a HoC ate through my 15 Chosen (though I DO admit he got some pretty lucky rolls!)
For lizardmen, do what I do, take one level 2 sorcerer with the lore of nurgle, give him the third eye, then cast The Dwellers Below on the Slann and his unit. He'll probably fail since his strength is 3, and you'll take a chunk out of the big TG unit too!
+++XENOS SPOTTED+++ thrilling battles within the Vitorina subsector: http://xenosspotted.blogspot.com/
Against vamps make sure to take almost all units with either mark of Khorne or Slaanesh. Failing a fear or terror test can turn an easy combat into an outright massacre for them. If your opponent has wraiths, definitely go fire. Not only can you shoot them from afar, but also use flaming sword of rhuin to make your attacks magical. Today my opponent charged wraiths/banshee into my horde of Marauders, thinking he was safe. Not only didn't they run, but also held long enough for my sorcerer to give them flaming swords which led to the wraiths being slaughtered in a single turn.