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In my 3k list I've got about 450pts invested in Wizards. A Level 4 Shadow and a Level 1 with the 3rd eye. On paper it seems like an awesome combo. Lowering enemy stats so the Warriors mash them easier while the Level one runs around stealing magic and throwing 6 dice into the nastiest enemy spell he can steal.
However, are they worth it? The last couple of games has got me thinking. It seems you need to get lucky with a Winds of Magic to make the Level 4 seem worth the extra 100 or so points. An average roll means you're not getting enough dice to pump out the spells that make the Level 4 upgrade seem worth the upgrade from a Level 2. Now the +2 to cast and dispel is handy but, is that worth the 100+pts?? I'm starting to wonder. The only REAL bonus you're getting from the upgrade is the ablity to take Shadow magic, but I can get that from whacking the Book of secrets and a Spell familiar on an Exalted champion.
Now I'm not saying I'd totaly ditch magic, you need the defence and some magic is always good.
Is anyone else having the same lacklustre feeling with Magic? To me having so many points invested in a 'hit and miss' phase doesn't seem worth it. Or is it just me suffering in the corner with dice that seem to have too many ones and twos on them?
The thing is, high level sorcerers are so important not only for your own phase, but for countering when the enemy rolls really well on WoM.
Have you tried using the Power Familiar?
A different tactic would be:
Level 4/MoT/Blood_of_Tzeentch/Humunculus is SOLID and hard to miscast too - but I'd probably just take one caster then with Blood.
I play against Skaven & High Elves, so magic is never lackluster as they seemingly have bucketloads of dice to use.
Sona si Latine loqueris.
Or you could just get the Curseling.
Last edited by Ascendo Tuum; February 7th, 2011 at 20:31.
Sona si Latine loqueris.
I pref the mage lords so they can have spell options. Sure the hero level guys can bring 2-3 spells but I find that when I do that i get stuck with the worst spells, leaving my magic phase predictable.
The Magicphase in itself is almost it's own game. I think there are more factors to consider than the tangible elements (point costs, casting bonuses ect), in the sense that how your opponent will react to a mage lord vs a mage hero. But that is a varible that is going to change from player to player as much as a magic phase will differe from turn to turn.
I've never had any luck in the magic phase. I seem to always get the short end of the straw, even if I out magic my opponent in casters.
No matter how much magic I bring, my opponent seems to do a better job. I think I might stick to a lvl1-2 with 3rd Eye + scroll and rely on my opponents to go magic heavy.
More often than not, I take a lvl4 for defense rather than offense, only to find out I can't do squat about my opponents magic.
If someone wants a spell through, he throws 6 dice at it and either get a IF or I don't have that amount of d-dice.
I feel I want a combat Lord, but I'll die horribly if I do. But I die horribly with a lvl4 as well, so to hell with a lvl4.
Sure, Shadows/Heavens/Metal are nice, but not thát awesome.
(I might be talking out my you-know-what, I'm just frustrated that no matter what I bring, my local opponents can, and always will, top it.)
My current vision is to rely on combat, and use a 3 eyed lvl1-2 with a scroll as a cheap counter.
If he doesn't have any magic, I can get 1-2 spells of in my phase and count myself lucky I didn't spend a fortune on a character I don't like.
If he does go magic heavy, I have spent probably half of what he has, and I get what he has!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't take level 4's. I'm just wondering what other people have found in their games.
Maximus. Glad I'm not alone. That's pretty much what I'm finding. My level 4 has made pretty much no difference defence wise when my opponent (demons, H-Elves) go magic heavy. Where as my Orc opponent can shut down a magic phase defence wise. usually with more Dispel Dice than I have Power Dice.
I'm thinking a Level 2 with 3rd eye, Tzeentch and puppet will cause enough havoc against enemy casters to fill in the role of a level 4 offense-wise. While a Level 1 with a scrol can provide a little protection against that big spell (that does get IF).
In one list I've ditched a Level 4 dor 2 Exalteds. I've then given my BSB the BoS and a scroll to be the caddy. Then grabbed a tooled up Level 2 such as the one mentioned above. I'm feeling, especially with my luck, that points invested in combat will be more efficiant than investing on a hit n miss phase.
Having said that I'm gonna try this little fellow out at 2k in another list.
Scorcerer Lord, Shadow, Preservation, Charmed shield, Rune Blade.
Ws6, str5, 4 attacks (5 as he's in a Raged unit) with a 3+ Sv and a 4+ Ward. He's not bad in combat, not great but better than most with those stats. I'm thinking he's a good 'in-between'. Giving me some good spell castin ability whilst not loosing out on any fighting hittyness.
I'll then support this guy with a Lvl 1 with the Puppet.
In my experiances one age is more than enough, If you're facing a level 4 wizard you know he will try to buf his best spell with as many dices he can use, dispelling that is usually a los of dispel dice. So I use one level one mage with the puppet so when the opponent miscasts you have the means to make him disappear into oblivion. The level one mage on his own can do the same as the level 4 with enough power dice (exept for a plus 3 but is easely counterd with having 1 dice more to cast with than your opponent has dispel dice) and a bound spel. The tric in this scenario is calculating to try to get the bound spell out first or after the casting of your level one mage.
Ok, wrote a huge, long comment to mr. Borak, but for some reason it needed a mod to accept it, and it was never posted. Ill try to recap here:
Mr. Borak, Ive followed your advice on this board for some time, find it sound and good, and will offer my views as a service back to you. I have not had many games with WoC yet, but have played extensively with both Empire and VoC.
Under the 8th edition rules, I have come to expect every tournament army to sport at least 1 level 4 (and a lot of times just one) wizard. I think it is as close to a must as you can find under the new rules. The +2 difference in dispel and casting if you only have a lvl 2, is the difference that means the opposition gets one extra spell through, and you get none.
Ive seen plenty of magic phases with no spells getting through, either due to low or lopsided WoM or dispel scrolls, priests, runes and whatnot. More often than not, even with a lvl 4 mage you can at best get 1 spell through in round 1-3.
But what often happens in tournaments, is that *one* spell that goes through, which makes the game for you. The Okkams on your 30 ghouls against his 15 knights, that kind of thing.
Granted, you can do that with a lvl 1, and just put in dice and hope for a IF. Ive worked with a few builds and it doesnt work on its own. However if you can use the freed up points to take out his lvl 4 caster, you are in the lead. Doll, Black Tongue, Feedback Scroll, can all help you here, but it wont be easy. Because many spells in 8th thatll kill you are buffs and hexes, MR is not really that valuable a commodity.
Generally Id say that if you are able to kill off his lvl 4, you wont have won the game, but your chance of making a gamebreaking move, increases drastically. Same thing goes for him, if your magic defenses are non-existant.
I think it could be done, but you would need a rocksolid early punch on his spellcaster in order to make it work. On the other hand, if you use your lvl 4 *and* do the rocksolid kill the opponents lvl 4, you are just that much better off, that it seems like a more viable tournament option. But Id dare say if you go for it, it will be a challenging list to run, and by no means impossible.
Last edited by Wrathchilde; February 8th, 2011 at 17:20.
WFB - Empire, VC, WoC; W40K - Eldar, Dark Eldar
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Thanks for the post Wrath. I do see your point, the +2 cast/dispel, does mean you have to put in an extra dice to cast/dispel Vs a level 4.
In my experience you'll average around 7-8 dice for Powerdice. So on average you'll have 4 for dispel. If that enemy caster wants to kick out a spell, that's game changing, he'll use 5-6 dice to cast it. Now this will result in I.F or a very high casting value. Both of which you are going to struggle to stop with 4 dice, +4 or +2. This is why I pack a Scroll for these such occassions.
Now obviously this scenario is based on averages so it's not always going to happen like this. It also depends what spells your opponent has, if he doesn't get a game breaking spell and just 3-4 mediocre spells he'll be using 2-3 dice for each. Now this is what you'll struggle with but then, like above, him having more dice to use than you will mean you'll only be able to stop 2 or so spells anyway, no matter your bonus to dispel.
This is what I'm finding anyway.
Level 4 is still a great choice to take, his combat stats are still on par with alot of other race's heroes. The 3 Chaos lores seem to have dropped in power in 8th edition (still strong but a half step below the generic lores)
I would almost always bring a level 2 over a level 1. When I play against skaven and HE I bring a level 2 because he provides enough magic defense (spread MR around your list to compensate) Why try to compete with these armies in their best phases? A strong CC lord will probably do more against these armies.
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"