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  1. #1
    Senior Member Boshea's Avatar
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    Starting a chaos army

    Decided to finally make the jump to fantasy, and have been attempting to put together a 2000 point starter army while trying to wrap my head around the rules and terminology. So far this is what I've been looking at.


    Valkia the Bloody-410
    Chaos Sorcerer-Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch 125
    18 Chaos Warriors-Mark of Khorne, Additional weapon, Full Command 348
    18 Chaos Warriors-Mark of Khorne, Additional weapon, Full Command 348
    18 Chaos Warriors-Mark of Khorne, Additional weapon, Full Command 348
    5 Chaos Knights-Mark of Khorne, Full Command 280
    Chaos Warshrine 130
    1989

    Got a lot of advice from different people and there seemed to be a divide on Hellcannons versus Warshrines. While the Hellcannons would give some much needed ranged power, I settled on warshrines for two reasons. I realized that Valkia's Gaze of Khorne affected all rolls not just her's, and I could field more units if I took a Warshrine.

    Another debated topic was Halberds versus additional weapons. If I did the math right you'll end up with the same number of wounds for both weapons, but the halberds have a higher save to make. Since I found out that halberds are a separate upgrade sprue I went with additional weapons. The place I play at doesn't enforce WYSIWYG, but I like making my units accurate.

    Remaining points went into the sorcerer. I lose points for no longer remaining mono-Khorne, but I need a way to interact in the magic phase. His main purpose to fly around an be annoying.

    What exactly is a Battle Standard Bearer? I've seen this term used every where but can't figure out what exactly the purpose of doing this is.

    Any help would be nice. It was pretty easy to learn the basics of fantasy since they were similar to 40k, but there is so much more depth to this.


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  3. #2
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    Looks all right! And welcome to the fantastic side of the hammer. A Battle Standard Bearer is generally a hero model that has gotten an upgrade to Battle Standard Bearer. Every unit within 12" of it gets to re-roll failed Leadership tests.

    It's a solid starting list. Though here's a few points worth thinking about:

    1. The Sorcerer will only get a single spell, and at 2000 points a +1 to your dispel attempts is hardly worth it. The points might be better spent elsewhere.
    2. Dropping down the Warriors of Khorne to 15 will free up a lot of points, and still be a very solid unit
    3. Champions do very little good for us for their price, a single extra attack isn't worth it on a model with multiple attacks already when that extra attack costs
    nearly the price of another model. Though I do see the synergy with the Warshrine.
    4. With Valkia and a Warhsrine, you might consider upgrading a Warrior unit to Chosen to make the most of the Gaze of Khorne. Trolls are also worth considering as
    a replacement for the Knights.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Boshea's Avatar
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    So considering that Valkia lets units re-roll failed Break tests within 12", and Will of Chaos re-rolls failed panic, would there be any benefit of adding a BSB?

    I'm aware the sorceror is fairly lacking, but I may be able to free the points up to get him to level 2. Like I said his main purpose was to prevent my army from getting rolled in magic phases. Can't attempt to dispel spells unless I have a wizard of some variety, or at least that's my understanding of the rules. It was suggested to me to take the Mark of Tzeetch to get the lore (+1 on cast attempts doesn't hurt) but I can also use Nurgle, Fire, or Death. Technically I can use Slaanesh, but I refuse to use opposing gods.

    Hmmm, 5*3 blocks would free up a lot of points and I only lose 5 attacks per block. Really only went with 6*3 since it seemed to be the standard size I was running into. For larger games I'll go back to 18, but 15 should work fine at 2000. Champions is another thing I added because they seemed to show up in every list I looked at. They are definetly better with the Warshrine. So that gives me 144 extra points to play with now, which will likely go towards making the Sorceror less terrible.

    Chosen would be pretty beastly with Gaze of Khorne letting me attempt to avoid an unfavorable result. The champion can also carry magical items which means I can add in a Favor of the gods to get a good amount of control over my results. I'll see what I can do with switching a block of warriors for a block of 10 chosen. I like Knights for the mobility, and I wanted to try and keep the army fairly Mono-warrior. Trolls are definetly a fine substitute for them though.

  5. #4
    Favored of Tzeentch Viktor's Avatar
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    You don't have to run a unit 3x5 just because they are 15 models. This is a common misconception. You can just as well run them with two front ranks of 6 and only 3 in the back rank. Don't let any OCD-ridden Fantasy yabber tell you otherwise.

    Also, you can dispel things even without a Wizard in the army.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
    Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks

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    Drill Sergeant Lord Borak's Avatar
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    Bjorn knows his stuff so I'll leave him to highlight the main points

    If the sorcerer is there purely to dispel stuff then I wouldn't bother with him. +1 to dispel isn not going to be worth 125pts. There's isn't much chance you're going to get your single spell off anyway, not against another 2000pt force.

    You could grab an Exalted Champion and give him the Book of secrets. This makes him a level 1 wizard so you still retain the +1 to dispel. He's a grand total of 135pts with this item. You're not loosing anything but gaining some punch in combat. He's also got 25pts to spend on more Magic items if the feeling is there. Or........

    Invest some more points into the Sorcerer. Make him a Level 2, Tzeentch and give him the 3rd Eye of Tzeentch. Stealing enemy spells is awesome and if your opponent has bought a Level 4 then you can steal all his spells and throw them back at him. This makes your hero level wizard a bargain. Very fun against Lizardmen, Elf and Skaven armies.

    Other than that, I would try to make at least one of those units carry haberds. The str5 is more useful than you think. Especially against people with a decent save or high toughness. Str4 attacks don't do that much to Dwarves in their Heavy armour and shields.

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    Senior Member Boshea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    You don't have to run a unit 3x5 just because they are 15 models. This is a common misconception. You can just as well run them with two front ranks of 6 and only 3 in the back rank. Don't let any OCD-ridden Fantasy yabber tell you otherwise.

    Also, you can dispel things even without a Wizard in the army.
    Apparently I don't need a wizard to dispel. Well that's what I get for only reading the first paragraph.

    I like the Exalted Hero with Book of Secrets setup. A warrior with a magic book fits my idea of a khorne army better than a sorcerer. I'll see what looks better on paper though. lvl 2 Sorcerer with eye will definantly have more power, but hero with book fits theme better.

    The more I read about combat the more I see the benefits to higher strength. I'll have to see what people run at my local store, but I'll definitely have one block of warriors with halberds.

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    Going to have to agree with Borak on the Halberds. A tip with the Chosen is to either give them the Doom Banner or the have the Champion take a Shrieking Blade, for some more re-rolling action. High chance of getting a 4+ ward save (3+ if you go for Mark of Tzeentch) and stubborn as well? Yes please!

  9. #8
    Senior Member Boshea's Avatar
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    Yeah, Halberds seem to be the best option for anything other then mowing through a horde. I think you have some of the gear mixed up Bjorn. Shrieking Blade gives fear, and I can't take a Doom Totem with Chosen (25 points over my banner limit). This is what I ended up with for a second try.

    Valkia the Bloody-410
    Chaos Sorcerer-Lvl 2, Mark of Tzeentch, Third eye or Tzeentch, Spell Familiar, Book of Secrets 205
    18 Chaos Warriors-Mark of Khorne, Additional weapon, Full Command 348
    18 Chaos Warriors-Mark of Khorne, Halberds, Full Command 348
    10 Chosen-Mark of Khorne, Halberds, Full Command, Favour of the Gods 275
    5 Chaos Knights-Mark of Khorne, Full Command 280
    Chaos Warshrine 130
    1996

    Freed up enough points from switching one block of warriors to chosen that I was able to keep them at 18. The only magical items I found that really benefited them was Favour of the Gods, which gives me good control over their EoG rolls.

    Played around with Exalted Hero setups, but nothing seems to come out as good as the sorcerer. With this setup he'll have access to 5+ spells (3 Tzeentch, 1 from book, and all enemy spells) which is probably a bargain since he's 30 points less than a naked Sorceror Lord. I may drop book to give him a magic item to help in CC since he still must issue challenges whenever possible.

  10. #9
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Make sure you understand the difference between break tests, panic tests, and psychology tests. You have 2 covered with the Will of Chaos and Valkia, and a BSB brings the re-rolling failed psychology tests. This is SUPER important for you because you are running an all khorne army. Frenzy troops can be led astray by light calv or other toss away units if you fail to restrain. with a BSB you can re-roll failed restrain tests, failed march tests, failed reform-move tests, ect.

    Hell Cannon vs Warshrine: I personally don't like the warshrine without chosen. Just too random. Chosen can be set up to almost garuntee good rolls, whereas without i've been boosted with MR LDR and fear. . . . . garbage!
    Hellcannon, however, can be an absolute disaster, for your targets or for yourself! it's shooting is extreme on both sides of the scale (being able to wipe units off the table with a single shot, or kill all your wizards or blow up your own troops). HOWEVER, it is also popular practice to use him as a monster insted as artillery. with this T6 6w unbreakable, he will hold your flank for you better than just about anything else in the army..

    Cheapest decent mage build I can think of is an unmarked mage with the infernal puppet and 3rd eye gift. The infernal puppet is IMO the most powerful magic item we have available. It's rules are that you can adjust miscasts, but it should also read that it totally messes up your opponents thinking. Intimidation of the possibility of their mage lord with 100pts of gear and plays a crutial role in their army could get blown up from rolling double 6's keeps the amount of dice they use to cast lower. I've seen people who roll 10-12 powerdice throw away most of them because they do not want to use more than 2 or 3 dice to cast. this leaves spells more prone to failure, lower casting costs, and the real nasty bombs are used sparingly.

    Tzeech and nurgal are good lores, but to trim points for troops the basic lores of fire is reliable for damage, while death has some nice hexes and is a good character assassin.

    I wouldn't use valkia either. She has some good abilities but if you are just getting started I think it best if you stick with regular character choices. It will help you learn the army better and how to use the special characters to their maximum potential.

    I am a fan of 3 units of warriors/chosen as the focus point of the army. But I would mix up the gear of the troops to make the army as a whole more versitile. Halberds, Shilelds and AHW are all good choices, so bring all 3!

  11. #10
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshea View Post
    Played around with Exalted Hero setups, but nothing seems to come out as good as the sorcerer. With this setup he'll have access to 5+ spells (3 Tzeentch, 1 from book, and all enemy spells) which is probably a bargain since he's 30 points less than a naked Sorceror Lord. I may drop book to give him a magic item to help in CC since he still must issue challenges whenever possible.
    Unfortunatly you are not correct. The WoC FAQ has updated the rules for the book of secrets. The book makes him a level 1 mage of shadow, fire or death. that means the 35 points on his level are wasted. the points spent on tzeech will not allow him access to the lore, but will give him the +1 to casting rolls. drop the book of secrets for sure.

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