Children of Khorne vs Tomb Kings: please help me - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Redrik's Avatar
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    Children of Khorne vs Tomb Kings: please help me

    At my local gaming store we recently started a league for warhammer fantasy after finishing our 40k escalation league starting off i faced bretonians, lizardmen, and a nurgle WoC army i beat the lizardmen and nurgle and i barely tied with bretonians. My army is khorne themed but i use a few of what i call "enslaved sorcerors" haha.

    Im currently tied for first place and my next opponent is going to be tomb kings and hes undefeated so far... the guy is a MAJOR douchebag and NOBODY in the league likes him so they are all routing for me to beat him the thing is that none of them know how to beat tomb kings with WoC. After browsing around here for a while i decided to become a member because i liked many of the articles. So now i decided to post for myself and seek advice and suggestions as this is the list im thinking about taking against him.

    The limit is 1500 points




    Festus gives my main warrior block poison / regeneration and 185
    supports my army with nurgle magic

    Wulfrik taking him mainly to take down his king or prince that 185
    willl prolly be hiding in the main block of skellies

    Sorceror Lord with glaive of putrification, infernal puppet, 310
    and bronze armor of zhrakk

    im going to stick this guy with a unit of warriors and try to charge at the sphinx i know hes almost guerenteed to use if my lord hurts him just once he becomes S2 T2 and my lord is immune to poison / killing blow and i hear tomb kings miscast alot so i took the puppet to make sure it hurts him

    20 warriors with shields and halberds and a banner of rage 375
    my primary block for taking the fight to his skellies and or chariots

    10 warriors with 2 hand weapons mark of khorne and command 215
    supporting unit to try and flank his chariots if he tries getting around my main
    block with them if not they will be used to flank his skellies

    10 warriors with great weapons mark of khorne and command 225
    my sphinx hunting unit that will accompany the sorceror also great if they
    survive or end up having to face his chariots as str 6 gives -3 to armor

    if you have suggestions or any tips i should know about fighting tomb kings please help my match goes down in 4 days


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  3. #2
    Senior Member Krull's Avatar
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    what lore are you going to take with your sorcerer lord?
    i must say i won't take that much chars in a 1500 point battle
    mostly just 2 a sorcerer and a BSB..

    maybegive your 20 warriors MoT, drop the banner and halberds, so they have a 5+ parry save? a great anvil unit
    and maybe make this unit smaller, and the other 2 a bit bigger
    like 16 - 12 - 12

  4. #3
    Senior Member Redrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krull View Post
    what lore are you going to take with your sorcerer lord?
    i must say i won't take that much chars in a 1500 point battle
    mostly just 2 a sorcerer and a BSB..

    maybegive your 20 warriors MoT, drop the banner and halberds, so they have a 5+ parry save? a great anvil unit
    and maybe make this unit smaller, and the other 2 a bit bigger
    like 16 - 12 - 12

    was thinking lore of heavens? someone told me it does more damage against undead though ive only ever used my codex lores

    and i actually made a miss type and put halberd and shields because i usually go for that on my big block it should have additional hand weapons
    which gives them 4 attacks each they already have a 5 up ward save + poisoned attacks

    im open to yoru suggestions just trying to make sense of what changes i would make and why ya know?

  5. #4
    Senior Member Krull's Avatar
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    yea lore of heavens is one of my favorite, rerolling all 1's and let them reroll 6's (haha FU poison )
    and chain lightning is really awesome to (can jump into units that are in CC)

    the 20 warriors unit seems a big big to me
    (or are you going for a 7 x 3 formation? )
    (if you where going for a 5 x 4 i wouldn't do it, the last 2 ranks are just waiting before they can do something, so they better get in the 10 regiment so you can field 6 x 2 formation, which give you some more attacks to)
    while the 10 small units seems a bit small
    never had good experience with to small units, they mostly get shot to fast...

    ow and didn't the sfinxes have the fly ability? if you cast a spell of heavens on them, they get an extra D6 S4 hits for the attribute

    and the reason why i try to take 2 characters in 1500 is that for the 3th one, you can make your units bigger, or take an extra unit... maybe even a unit of knights

    ow just an idea: (although i don't know the WS for TK's) give your big unit MoN, so they hit you on -1 WS and have to hit you on a 5+, shooting will be at -1 to, and if you have that other nurgle spell, the template one, you don't have any side effects if you miscast...

  6. #5
    Senior Member Redrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krull View Post
    yea lore of heavens is one of my favorite, rerolling all 1's and let them reroll 6's (haha FU poison )
    and chain lightning is really awesome to (can jump into units that are in CC)

    the 20 warriors unit seems a big big to me
    (or are you going for a 7 x 3 formation? )
    (if you where going for a 5 x 4 i wouldn't do it, the last 2 ranks are just waiting before they can do something, so they better get in the 10 regiment so you can field 6 x 2 formation, which give you some more attacks to)
    while the 10 small units seems a bit small
    never had good experience with to small units, they mostly get shot to fast...

    ow and didn't the sfinxes have the fly ability? if you cast a spell of heavens on them, they get an extra D6 S4 hits for the attribute

    and the reason why i try to take 2 characters in 1500 is that for the 3th one, you can make your units bigger, or take an extra unit... maybe even a unit of knights

    ow just an idea: (although i don't know the WS for TK's) give your big unit MoN, so they hit you on -1 WS and have to hit you on a 5+, shooting will be at -1 to, and if you have that other nurgle spell, the template one, you don't have any side effects if you miscast...
    the tomb kings get something that ups the weapons skill to like 7 or some stupid shit like that so it wouldnt be that big a deal i originally had MoN but dropped it because i was told its useless i was told the unit of skellies or whatever gets to use the WS or the character he puts with them not sure if its true but i figured MoN would be useless if it IS true ill rework the list and repost a new one for you to go over

    also i greatly appreciate the help seeing as how your the only person who has replied thus far

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    Member tanfew's Avatar
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    It's the lore of light that gets extras against undead, but Lore of Heavens will mess up his Sphinx and single models, plus the buffs are respectable. Unfortunately, Krull, with the Arrows of the Asp Rule, they ignore the penalty to hit caused by MoN
    Last edited by tanfew; June 15th, 2011 at 11:32.
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  8. #7
    Senior Member Redrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krull View Post
    yea lore of heavens is one of my favorite, rerolling all 1's and let them reroll 6's (haha FU poison )
    and chain lightning is really awesome to (can jump into units that are in CC)

    the 20 warriors unit seems a big big to me
    (or are you going for a 7 x 3 formation? )
    (if you where going for a 5 x 4 i wouldn't do it, the last 2 ranks are just waiting before they can do something, so they better get in the 10 regiment so you can field 6 x 2 formation, which give you some more attacks to)
    while the 10 small units seems a bit small
    never had good experience with to small units, they mostly get shot to fast...

    ow and didn't the sfinxes have the fly ability? if you cast a spell of heavens on them, they get an extra D6 S4 hits for the attribute

    and the reason why i try to take 2 characters in 1500 is that for the 3th one, you can make your units bigger, or take an extra unit... maybe even a unit of knights

    ow just an idea: (although i don't know the WS for TK's) give your big unit MoN, so they hit you on -1 WS and have to hit you on a 5+, shooting will be at -1 to, and if you have that other nurgle spell, the template one, you don't have any side effects if you miscast...

    ok heres the new list


    16 warriors
    shields
    banner of rage
    command

    12 warriors
    shields
    mark of birdman
    command

    12 warriors
    shields
    mark of birdman
    command

    lvl 2 sorceror using lore of death
    book of secrets
    infernal puppet

    lvl 2 sorceror using lore of death
    spell familiar
    dispel scroll

    8 chaos knights
    champion
    mark of khorne


    tomb kings have some low initiative so i took 2 lore of death FEAR THE PURPLE SUN


    PS: i just wanna point out that my KHORNE army having a bunch of TZEENTCH marks makes me very sad... and im sure it deeply angers my patron >.>

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    OK several comments:

    On a general note fluffy themse are nice, but if you want to win the battle / league you will need to embrace Tzeentch! It winds me up actually when people ask for list advice but won't abandon a theme or love of a certain miniature. If you want an optimised list you need to be prepared to use everything chaos has to offer. Sorry that wasn't a dig at Redrik, he seems like he's prepared to compromise, just a general observation.

    OK onto the nitty gritty:

    1. In WoC we don't usually bother with champions as they are a waste of points for a single attack. The exception to this is to protect a wizard from challenges.

    2. Get a BSB!

    3. Book of secrets is errataed in the FAQ and doesn't do what you think. It makes a character a level 1 wizard, so you just downgraded your level 2 sorcerer! I can see what you're trying to do, it looks like you're trying to guarantee getting purple sun by having two sorcerers with 3 spells each, but unfortunately the FAQ ruins your plan. If you want a specific spell it's more effective to have a level 4.

    Combining tips 2. and 3. I would have a BSB with the Book of Secrets.
    Hero, BSB, MoT, Halberd, Shield, Book of Secrets + 25 points of whatever you like.
    Nice items are: Collar of Khorne, Dragon Helm, Charmed Shield.
    Also consider gifts: Third eye of Tzeentch to steal the enemy spells or conjoined homunculs to give you a casting bonus so you don't have to risk miscasting with multiple dice!

    4. Tomb Kings do generate a lot of power dice, but I don't think that necessarily means they will miscast a lot. They have several good bound items which use power dice and are guaranteed to have a wizard (hierophant) so I think I would be expecting a variety of small-medium effects rather than multi-dicing larger spells. I think the puppet is a waste in a small game. It's main uses are protecting your 400 point sorcer lord from his own miscasts and using it as a weapon by synergising with Pandaemonium (Lore of Tzeentch) and getting the enemy to miscast a lot. Since you don't have an expensive sorcer lord and aren't using Tzeentch magic I would leave the puppet at home in favour of the dispel scroll.

    5. The unit with Banner of rage isn't optimal. We use the banner to give a unit permanent frenzy and so we can give them a different mark. Your unit might as well have halberds since they can't parry while frenzied. If you're not going to mark them it would be cheaper to take MoK on these guys to get the same effect. The banner works well on knights, because it gives the knights AND horses an extra attack as well as letting you take MoT on them for extra protection (which you definitely want when they weigh in at 40+ points per model).

    6. I think 8 knights is too many. They're a massive points sink and if they can kill 5 knights they can kill 8. I'd play this unit as small and mobile (with the rage banner for 25 attacks!) and save 120 points - this will almost buy you a unit of marauders. Swap the champion for a standard bearer (obv) as knights suffer from static combat resolution because they never have ranks.

    7. I think 3 units of warriors is too many. I'd go for two x 18 (one Halberd, Shield, MoK and one HW + Shield, MoT). This is your standard hammer and anvil. I would never give Warriors great weapons as this wastes their incredible initiative. Plus how embarrassing is it to be going last when fighting undead? I'd use the left over points from here and the knights to buy a unit of great weapon marauders with MoK.

    So overall it will look something like:

    18 x CW: halberd, shield, MoK, Musician, Standard
    18 x CW: hand weapon, shield, MoT, Musician, Standard
    36 x Marauder: great weapon, MoK, Musician, Standard
    5 x Knights: MoT, Musician, Standard, Banner of Rage
    BSB
    Wizard

    I would try and find room for the banner of eternal flame, as undead can be susceptible to flaming attacks.
    Not sure how many points you'll have to spend on your main wizard, have a play with the numbers.

    One thing to consider is that Tomb Kings can recover models and are slow to move so you might not get into close combat as quickly as you'd like. So the usual tactic of weakening the enemy with spells isn't quite so viable vs TKs; you won't chip away at undead because they'll be back to full strength before you know it. Therefore you want to concentrate on spells or combos that will either insta-kill a unit or do horrendous damage in one go. Failing that go for buffs and hexes that will give you better combat resolution. Remember TKs never flee, but they take extra wounds from instability when they lose combat. Once you're locked into them you're there to stay until they're dead so you need to make sure you survive.

    Beware the alter of souls, this can do a lot of wounds in the magic phase and wounds on chaos warriors are expensive!

  10. #9
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    I've used a giant and a horde of maraders with korne and GW against TK with good results both times. giant is a little more risky but can have big payoff.

  11. #10
    Senior Member HellcannonsRcool's Avatar
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    the tomb kings dont break, so combat res isnt overly important as they will never break and run, you have to kill them all. Every time they cast a spell in the magic phase they resurrect slain undead models. (d3+1)

    They have 2 special characters that confer apilities to the unit they join. the one that gives weapon skill, and one that gives poison attacks.

    their magic is pretty strong, they have a lot of hexes and augments. one gives an extra attack (even to shooting so each bowman would shoot twice) one gives killing blow, one gives +1 to hit. (some of these may come from characters as im not 100% sure.

    I think that a good strat is to tie up the enemies range with fast moving units while you bring up some heavy infantry, I would use lore of death and throw all my dice at sniping out their general. once he dies the army will crumble. stick your sorcerer in a decent bunker, move up with some knight sto tie up the range, and then cast away. lvl 4 lore of death would probably do fairly well.

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