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I'm kinda `rejoining` the forces of Chaos and I was thinking about starting a quite weird army. I'm not very skilled in WFB and so I'd like your advices.
Right now all I have is 20x Marauder Horsemen and unlimited number of chars (conversions). I was thinking about having ONLY various Sorcerers with all-cavalry army (and some `bodyguards` and stuff...).
I was thinking about something like this (for the start):
10x Marauder Horsemen - Command Group, shields, light armour, Mark of Slaanesh (?) ...
2x5 Marauder Horsemen - light armour, spears, throwing spears, ...
Sorcerer(s) - definitely Skull of Katam, Conjoined Homunculus and stuff...
Something like `bodyguards` - 5x Knights / Chosen ...
My intention is to have the sorcerers close 3" to each other due to the effect made by the Skull of Katam. They could maybe all have the Fire Lore spamming the enemy with fireballs and other nasty things. Then the `main group` of Marauder Horsemen would be a kind of `anvil` while the other Horsemen would `bite` the enemy with javelins and such. The Knights or Chosen would work as a backup force for the sorcerers since they'll be probably quite poor in Close Combat.
Sorry for long (and maybe totally ridiculous) thing that I wrote but I'm kinda curious whether this could actually work.
Thank you. May the Dark Gods watch over you all!
I'd spread those Sorcs out for sure. All it would take is one roll on the Miscast and they're all taking S10 hits. Lore of Fire is also somewhat pointless in a Warriors army, just because it's so redundant- we're already good at killing stuff, what we need are spells that do more than just a bunch of hits at Strength. We needs spells that take down things we can't deal with, like Monsters. Lore of Shadow or Heavens can be great for this.
Also, Cavalry has been hit pretty hard in this edition. Remember that in 8th, they've introduced the 'Step Up' rule which means that no matter how many foes we kill, they're still going to swing back with their entire front two ranks of models. Worse yet, if the enemy has more ranks at the end of combat, they count as being "Steadfast" which makes the Stubborn and a lot less likely to flee. These two things combined mean that cavalry usually just bog down and find themselves being chopped to bits after they charge- making them better suited to breaking the back of an enemy who's already engaged in close quarters with an infantry unit, rather than tanking in on their own.
You'd probably want the Knights as backup if you elect to go all cavalry, in fact, I'd almost fill out my entire army with Knights if I went back to all-cav. Our knights are good because they stay at a nice, high strength all game, and are extremely survivable with a 1+ save and T4. For a while I was running a pair of ridiculously expensive regiments of MCav:
11 MCav, MoK, Javs, Flails, Champion
1 Exalted, MoS, Steed of Slaanesh, BloodCurdling Roar/Stream of Corruption
Since the character and unit both shared the Fast Cav rule, I'd Vanguard them up field on turn 1. If they weren't allowed to charge, they'd move into range and toss javs and Roar. If they could charge, they'd get straight in against flanks or smaller enemy regiments and hit them with 21 S5 attacks (+2D6 S3 if they had Stream). It was usually enough to scatter the target regiment, and leave me free to harass the enemy from behind as long as I could pass my LDs to keep from charging. Then, when the enemy regiments were locked in against my infantry, I'd charge them in the rear to make sure they scattered.
Problem? The regiment is less survivable and more expensive than 10 Chaos Knights... and I was fielding 2 of them.
Wow, some extremely useful advices here...thank you very much guys!
As I said I'm not that experienced to think about the possibillity of being overrunned by infantry (mostly because I know nothing about 8th edition yet). And I also didn't even think about trebuchets and things or even miscast... Ah, too bad, because I find Skull of Katam so useful! And I also like the idea having all those sorcerers near each other literally decimating the enemy. But meh, that would be too easy.
About the lack of infantry I'll probably include some Marauders, because I find the Chaos Warriors way too expensive. And later I will definitely include some Chaos Knights because they are simply too good not being fielded.
I'm not gonna post any army lists but I'll use your advices, make up something, try to play with it and then I'll maybe ask for more...thank you a lot again!
You can win battles with that setup for sure. Just gang up on your opponents small units (WarMachines, Archers, skrimishers, monsters and that stuff) and avoid his big units.
Killing some of his units and not letting him kill any of yours will give you victory.
Yeah, that's what I'd like to aim for. It's for sure much harder than just trying smash the enemy with hordes of Chaos Warriors but I like challenges. Thanks for your advice.
Also I was thinking, isn't it strange to have ONLY sorcerers? I like that idea and it suits my theme but do you think that I'll be actually able to win with no Exalted Heroes? I was thinking (if I had 3 Sorcerers fielded) that one would have Skull of Katam and Conjoined Homunculus and the other two would both have some Arcane Items and some Magic Weapons too to defend themselves a bit. And when things get bad (or there is a good opportunity) they would get close to each other and start benefit from Skull of Katam...by that time enemy warmachine(s) should be hunted by the Horsemen.
Weird, I know...but I'm so eager to try it.
I personally feel this is a disaster in the works.
Mages being so close together is dangerous due to miscast and templates, they are a pefect target.
Mounting them and putting them in cav units is also a terrible idea as mages MUST issue challenges and will get raped in combat vs characters. While being mounted lets them get into range of spells faster it also limits the targets of the spells when combat starts, things like fire magic will be almost completly useless once you get into base-to-base.
Furthermore, being in a unit of 5ish knights means that it will take maybe 1 or 2 turns to lose your lookout-sir rolls, meaning that the mages are an even bigger target. In a unit of marader horsemen? T3 4+ armour is about the worst bodyguard i can think of.
I'm sorry but this just has bad-news written all over it. It might be fun to play but you will have to have fun while losing.
As far as having ONLY mages, it's not as uncommon as you may think. our combat characters are a little over-the-top and their cost is appropirate for that. If your army consists mostly of warriors or knights then the combat characters aren't much of a step-up from what the troops can do themselves. In a marader-based army they shine a little more. The only real problem i would see with only casters is a lack of BSB. I've done games with one where he wasn't needed, games where he was there and saved my ass alot, games where i left him at home and did fine, and games where i left him out and hated myself for it. You really need to look at what you have and who you are going against. Anything that causes alot of fear/terror or panic tests, and if you are lacking marks that negate that (slaneesh or khorne) than you may want to re-consider. if you have alot/key units frenzied, you may want to re-consider. If you have an entire army of hard-core troops, you may be just fine.
One key thing you are missing is dogs. Someone here thinks you have a good chance to win if you avoid the deathstar units. well, I don't know how you would manage to avoid a deathstar without some throw-away units like dogs to block/re-direct. You will also need them for the deployment phase to put down first, hopefully preventing your opponent from deploying his deathstart oppisite your main force after they are deployed. If you insist on going thru with this plan, I'd put 2-3 units of 5 dogs as priority #1.
Last edited by talismanictattoo; June 18th, 2011 at 17:26.
Coming from someone with experience on both the commanding and receiving end of an All-Cav army (especially fast cav) I can tell you that Deathstars are actually what you want to see. An enemy dropping 500+pts into a single regiment at the expense of the rest of his army is perfect, because unless his Deathstar is also Fast-Cav, it's easy to avoid contact with it. You just keep riding around in circles and stay out of his LoS.
I've never built a list that included Dogs, that I didn't kick myself for later. Dogs are too pricey for a throw-away. The 30pts that you're spending for a minimum sized regiment can buy you 2 extra MCav or Warriors, almost another Knight, and that minimal regiment probably won't make it to the battle anyways. With him running so much Fast Cav, he's not going to get more drops than the enemy, and it doesn't matter anyways- his Vangaurd can be used to redeploy, and his speed and lack of hitting power means that he'll spend each movement phase reacting to the enemy deployment anyways. A smart opponent will deploy in a phalanx, with as many units covering eachother's flanks with LoS or bodies as possible.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with everything that Talismanic has said- he makes a lot of good points that deserve careful consideration when building your army. I fully agree with him on the All-Caster lord/hero selection. It's actually not uncommon at all, and more commonly you see Warrior players who hardly touch their Character alotment. Our CC guys are cool, but as he said- they do their jobs TOO well, and you're spending 100pts for extra WS that you don't even need. Casters can get their points back with Magic, and we're one of the few armies where casters are cheaper than our combat guys. You are going to want a BSB though- the best Leadership that you're going to get from a caster is 8- which looks a whole lot like a regular Warrior's. You can actually make the BSB into a caster though. My most recent BSB carried the Book of Secrets, 3rd Eye, and MoT, which translated to a +2 to cast, +1 to dispel, and he knew 1 Tzeentch spell (Flickering Fire always) and whatever spells he could steal from enemy casters.
Why not post up army lists? At least then we'll get a good look at what kind of items you're including and where you're spending points. It sounds silly, but there are a lot of mistakes that people make when they write their armies- I can usually trim about 100pts off of a list without people even feeling the loss. Another thing to keep in mind- WoC aren't exactly known for our Fast-Cav army abilities. Our shooting is atrocious. Other armies that do the Fast-Cav thing a lot better than we do would be Dark Elves, Wood Elves, and an Empire army with lots of Pistoliers.
Hope this helps a little more.
Wow...thank you alot, guys! I don't know if newbie like me deserves such attention but thanks. All your advices are really useful.
I recently decided running all-marauder army 'cause I'd like to command an army where there are more tactical opportunities. And it also suits my theme (lots of dark, hooded tzeentchian guys led by few champions - conversions with WE Glade Guard heads).
Anyways, all I have right now is 15x Marauders and 2x5 Horsemen. I also have a Sorcerer and an Exalted Hero. Later I'll probably add some Chaos Spawn instead of the Knights (and of course more Marauders and Horsemen AND a BS. I know I kinda changed my opinion but I find this setting more playable.
So a little army list for my actual army would be probably be something like this:
Exalted Hero - MoT, Halberd, Armour of Morrslieb, Seed of Rebirth, Word of Agony.
Chaos Sorcerer - MoT, Blood of Tzeentch, Power Stone, Conjoined Homunculus.
15x Chaos Marauders - MoT, Shields, Light Armour, FCG.
2x5 MArauder Horsemen - MoT, Light Armour, Spears, Throwing Spears, Champion.
As I said earlier I would later add a BSB and some Spawns and expand/add the Marauder units. Any suggestions are welcomed. I know that it's maybe way too expensive but maybe it could work.
dont waste points on throwing spears, Ive fielded them 5 or so times and never EVER killed anything with them. I know they sound like a great idea. "Im going to run circles around them and throw my spears in their backs!"
but you only have 6 turns, and even if its only 10 points you wont make it back in those 6 turns.
I fielded a level 4 with mark of tzeentch and the book of ashur, standing beside a level 1 with the skull of katam. gives him +7 to cast. now THAT is fun
Last edited by HellcannonsRcool; June 19th, 2011 at 02:36.