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Would some one be kind enough to start a WoC army builder please
I intend to get the army book in the next two to three weeks.
here's what I'm after:
Tzeentch themed with some slaanesh
general needs to be a combat monster (killing other character's and units equally if pos)
a couple of mid to high level mage's
Warriors only no maruaders
a hellcannon or two
rest is optional to give a good balance
the only two models I have so far is an exalted champ converted to additional hand weapon and an exalted champ convert BSB, so the list doesn't have to conform to a limited selection due to my models the BSB is unpainted but has a unique banner made from the pewter chaos icon i got from Mark of chaos PC game. The ADH is painted in pink and has slaanesh icon on him would prefer him to be written up like that with eitehr ADH or some sort of paired magic weapon maybe so that i dont have to leave him out or have to re-paint him.
Many thanks in advance
I'm gonna level with you - the "all full plate" list is not where Warriors of Chaos excel. It sounds sweet at first (in the "OMG my numbers are SO much better than everybody else's!" sort of way), but the fact that you will be out-numbered all the time makes for tough and grindy combats, and those increase the risk that you roll like crap and lose guys you really can't afford to lose (and gods help you if you actually lose a fight to superior offensive volume), and then there's the fact that (in my experience) offense trumps defense in this game, and this will be a rather defensive army, given your themes of choice. Not fielding Marauders isn't a decision I would recommend.
Now that the disclaimer's out of the way, I can get back to trying to help you make this happen. If you're going to try "all full plate", Tzeentch is the way to go IMO. I would ditch Slaanesh and go pure Tzeentch here - you re-roll Panic tests anyway, and the only unit who can take the Mark and is really at any risk of failing any Fear/Panic/Terror tests are Marauders (which aren't going to be present on this list).
Here's what I've come up with so far:
Core - 1,036 points
2 x 30 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, Musician, Standard-Bearer - These will be your bread-and-butter troop blocks, and with a 3+ armor/5+ ward combination, they're about as durable as infantry can be in this game.
Special - 695 points
30 Chaos Chosen, Chosen Champion, Favor of the Gods, Halberds, Mark of Tzeentch, Musician, Standard-Bearer, Wailing Banner - These guys take advantage of the combination of Favor of the Gods and the Wailing Banner to give you a very high chance of having a block of Stubborn troops with a 3+ ward save, making them pretty close to unkillable. With that in mind, I've opted to equip them with Halberds so that they can be as killy as possible (and thus do a lot of the heavy lifting for your army).
Rare - 355 points
1 Hellcannon - As requested, though I'm not quite sold on this thing (quite a few people here seem to like it, but it's awful expensive for a slightly harder-hitting stone thrower IMO).
1 Chaos Warshrine, Mark of Tzeentch - Hands out buffs (and can help give you a do-over on the Chosen should the "make 'em unkillable" strategy fail), has some respectable offense, and is VERY hard to kill.
Heroes - 295 points
1 Chaos Sorcerer, L2 Wizard, Dispel Scroll - A par-the-course scroll caddy, for those nasty spells you don't want to get tagged by. I didn't put Mark of Tzeentch on him because that prohibits you from choosing any other lore, and I've found that having more than one list to choose from can be important.
1 Exalted Hero, BSB, Shield, Sword of Might, Mark of Tzeentch - A rather sparsely geared BSB, but since he's supposed to roll with the Chosen, he should be pretty unkillable as well.
Lords - 615 points
1 Chaos Lord, Enchanted Shield, Mark of Tzeentch, Ogre Blade - A fairly killy Chaos Lord setup (Strength 7 should rip through most things out there), but the real beauty lies in that if you put him in the unit of Chosen, he's almost invulnerable as well.
1 Sorcerer Lord, Charmed Shield, L4 Wizard, Mark of Tzeentch, Talisman of Preservation - A very tough Wizard, he has protection from miscasts in the form of the Charmed Shield, as well as a whopping 3+ armor/3+ ward defense line.
Grand Total: 2,996 points
Overall, I feel like I was able to stuff in most of everything I think would work well in this list, given the restrictions stated. However, if you really, really wanted to have at least one Slaanesh model, you could free up a few points (you don't need much) and then take the Mark of Slaanesh on your L2 Sorcerer. Another thing I would have liked to have had was points for one of the tastier Arcane Items for the Sorcerer Lord (like the Infernal Puppet or the Power Familiar) - I could definitely make an argument for them, though what to remove is rather up in the air. This army will be badly outnumbered in most fights (hell, they're out-numbered against my 2,000 point Beastmen list), but given the restrictions, I think this is one of your better bets.
1. Hellcannons are not for shooting. They're a solid Monster choice with a ward (dwarf) save!
2. Large blocks of infantry are not good for WoC. You'll have 6 guys on the frontline doing all the work and a few hits from the support rank, then 18 others standing there doing nothing. MASSIVE waste of points. Take the 2 x 30 and make it into 3 x 18. 30 Chosen is huge overkill, I run these somewhere in the range 12-16. Buy some Knights or something if you want to stick to the theme.
3. Ditch the sword of might on the BSB and get a halberd, use the points saved for something more useful. I like Collar of Khorne and some other goodies on mine
1. That explains a lot, actually. I get it now.
2. I disagree with that - I play a Khorne Chaos army, and it's all about the Horde formation for me, on both Marauders and Warriors. 10-wide is the way to go for troops that your opponent can't kill very easily (since the increased exposure isn't as big a deal), and that way everybody in the unit gets to fight. You're not going to lose in CC very often (if at all), so you don't need to go out of your way to be Steadfast. Go Horde, get your attacks in from everybody.
3. I guess if he's going to be in the unit of virtually indestructible Chosen, armor becomes less of an issue. That's probably a good idea.
Last edited by rothgar13; July 6th, 2011 at 20:26.
I'm a little hesitant to start stickying an Army List builder. We used to have a catch-all sort of List Builder program here on LO, with a few different writers, and it really fizzled out. Mostly because there is are one or two optimal builds for each army, and people usually just request "Build me a 2500pt army", and you keep copy-pasting the same thing. Or someone will make crazy requests like "Build me a 2500pt list for less than $400" or "Build me a competitive 2500pt list with lots of Ogres" (Ogres aren't competitive at all, BTW), and it wasn't worth wracking our brains when we couldn't give you an army in good conscience.
Your best bet is to either post a thread like this one, listing off your collection and asking for help, or better yet- taking a browse through the Armylist section and (Starting WoC? Post Questions HERE)this thread to get an idea of the general themes for Warriors. It's better to come up with something on your own and get suggestions than to just let someone else post a list for you. Nothing against Rothgar13, I'm just using him for an example, but who says he's ever even won a game with his Warriors? (I'm sure he has though- just an example) And you're going to trust him on to write your list on blind faith?
As for your list ideas-
You don't want to tie too many points up in characters, especially with an all-plate army. You can make a predominately Warrior army work, but you need to focus on how awesome Warriors already are, rather than how awesome Characters could be. Chaos Lords (our CC Monster Generals) will never be able to take on whole units by themselves- no character can in this edition. However, they can beat up just about anything under the sun, which makes them really expensive. For the price that you pay for a Chaos Lord, you can usually get almost 20 Chaos Warriors who can also chew up anything under the sun, and have almost 7 times as many wounds and 4 times as many attacks.
That being said, 'High Level Sorcerers' are also pretty expensive. Mostly thanks to the fact that they have a statline that eerily resembles most other armies' close combat characters. You'll likely only ever see one of them running amok on the table, and boy can they wreak some havoc.
For the Warrior units in your army, I take an approach opposite that of Rothgar (his is actually the unusual one around here, haha). I run several units of 15-18 Warriors, as that's all you usually need. Beefy regiments like his have about half their guys standing around doing nothing, or they only have 3 ranks anyways. My regiments have just as many ranks, one of which is picking it's nose (but it's only 5 or 6 guys) and I have enough units to cover a larger area of the field.
Admittedly, it's good to have Marauders in the army to either fill out the bodies and give you more targets on the cheap, or Marauder Cavalry to hunt down enemy machines and gunners. In my list, I mix the two by fielding Wulfrik and Festus- if I need to hunt guns, I run the Marauders with Wulfrik and come in behind the enemy lines around turn 2 or 3. If I need bodies on the field, I run them with Festus and give them a nice hefty regen save and some poisoned attacks.
There's nothing wrong with grabbing a pair of Hellcannons- they're nasty in a fight. Other than that, you should probably have a few points left over to grab up some other regiments. Here's a Tzeentch-based army with some Khorney flavor that I made for a tournament and grabbed second place. It's pretty similar to your ideas, with a strong magic focus, lots of plate armor, a Hellcannon, and if you swap those Knights for another Hellcannon (do it- they tanked at the tourney) you could have your pair of Hellbeasties. http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1829529 (2500pt Tournament List- tear it apart!)
I definitely agree with the Captain.
Nothing against rothgar13 but horde Chaos Warriors is a tremendous waste of points. Firstly a unit that big is tremendously cumbersome and hard to maneuver around terrain. Secondly you can rarely get the whole frontage into combat so you're only gaining the attacks of the guys in the third rank. Against a 5 wide 20mm based unit we can get a frontage of 6 into combat = 24 attacks in horde formation, but means a frontage of 4 that are not involved in the combat = 12 models total when you add up 3 ranks which is a lot of guys to have standing around twiddling their thumbs! Your horde of 30 has 24 attacks, whereas a unit of 18 has 18 attacks. Therefore the ratio of models (=points) per attack is better for the smaller unit. Moreover the horde can only take 4 wounds before wounds start to reduce its combat effectiveness, whereas 3x6 formation can take 6 before it loses an attack. This is probably balanced out by the fact that the horde does have an advantage here in that it can take more wounds before losing rank bonus.
But if you do the calculation, 2 hordes of 30 output 48 attacks, whereas 3 units of 18 in 3x6 formation output 54 attacks and costs nearly 100 points less, meaning you could mark them up and still have change compared to the horde build. In fact 3 marks of Khorne makes the costs nearly equivalent, but in that situation the smaller units output a total of 72 attacks, which is a full 50% better than the horde build. Not to mention the fact that three smaller units are easier to maneuver and give you an advantage in deployment.
Finally the sword of might is a terrible item for WoC. It does the same job as a halberd but for 5 times the price! Ditch it and spend the points elsewhere. I usually use my BSB to protect the unit he's with as it will gain a lot of attention. For that reason: Collar of Khorne (ward save AND Magic Resistance); Iron Curse Icon (ward vs war machines) and usually Dragon Helm for a bit of personal protection
Thank you all for your input my BSB how ever was converted to have Morathi's dark sword as I converted to be a normal sorceres (as i plan on having the real one in my army at high points didn't want confusion between my flyers).
I could how ever extend this as he isn't painted yet to make an extra cool halberd. is it worth giving him a magic banner or not.
Thanks again in advance and will check out that link now capt
Magic banner? Not really - most of the banners you would actually want can be taken by the unit you're in, and that way you get to keep your magic items.
With regards to the points made above... I can see the advantages the smaller units provide against small base, small frontage units (hard to deny, really), but how many of those do you really face as relevant foes (and not just tarpits where every attack you get counts, so you can try and get out of there faster)? I know I don't face many of them - most armies either try to run rings around me with Fast Cav, or come up with their own Horde/big base monstrous infantry/monsters/etc. to mix it up with me. There are fights where 15-18 Chaos Warriors just isn't enough manpower to get it done. I would probably strike a compromise, though, and bring 2 units of 15 and one big unit of 30 instead.
And yeah, I did say that he should bring Marauders - made a disclaimer for it and everything.
never ever ever ever ever run a khorne horde formation
that would be rediculios
a decent player would destroy that army
think about it
if you run 40 warriors with khorne and halbers that is over 600 points (once banners and command has be added its closer to 800) in 1 unit + any hero's
if i saw that unit i would run my dogs straigh up to it and position them right infornt of your warriors while moving my warriors up on your flank
you wld be forced to charge my dogs in your turn (or just sit there and do nothing all game anyway) and then be forced to over run.
then in my turn i wld either flank you or if i wasnt in position yet i wld do the same with my other unit of dogs and then flank you next turn
of course you cld just sit there all day and not charge but then my other unit of warriors wld be moving to pick up points else where
full plate armied do work and they work well
if you wanted a full plate then i wld do this:
1 unit of 21 nurgle warriors with halbers (or extra weapon) and banner of rage
1 unit of 24 khorne warriors with halbers, shields and razor banner
1 unit of 27 tzeencth warriors with shields and blastard banner
2 units of 5 khorne or nurgle knights
this way you will have so much felxability
yes you will be outnumbered but warriors are awsome and can take it
your core comes to a total of 1390 and the special comes to 460 and rare 150
so at 3k you still have 1000points for characters, warhounds, more rare or what ever
i would fear this army much much more than a horde of warriors
the only problem i can see you having is facing a marauder army or a huge monster list but iv only seen 1 marauder army and that consisted of 2 units of marauders and a hellcannon and 2 monster lists (1 of which i lost due to skinks baiting my frenzied warriors)
If being tarpitted is your concern then surely it's better to have three units rather than two? That way when two units are tarpitted you still have 1/3 of your Chaos Warriors ready for action.
If your chaos warriors are getting into combat with hordes then you are playing them incorrectly; you're either choosing your battles poorly, being out-deployed or getting tar-pitted (in which case see my argument above). you have to remember what each unit's job is. Chaos Warriors (and Chosen) are Warhammer's most elite infantry, capable of taking on almost anything! At 16 (1 points per model you need to be getting your money's worth with them so it's a bit of a waste getting into combat with hordes who typically have a value of 2-6 points per model. Each warrior needs to kill ~4 enemy models to claim his value back and that's a huge waste when they could be chopping up monsters or specialist units and make their value back in a single turn.
Monstrous cavalry/infantry are definitely good targets for chaos warriors. You should chop through most such units in a couple of turns with a respectable unit size. Avoid monsters though, if you don't dispatch them on initiative they will tear through the unit and you'll take heavy casualties which you can ill afford.
Running rings around you with fast cav you can't do much about, other than to protect your flanks better. But most fast cav suck in combat and shouldn't be a threat.