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Hi everyone! I noticed a lot of people making their Chaos Sorc the BSB usually and not the Exalted Hero...I'm guessing because the Hero is usually going to be in peoples faces?
Anyways was wondering if I could get some help for an upcoming WoC army I am putting together.
I'm unsure how to kit out a Exalted hero. I really want it to be in either my Khorne or Tz warrior unit. They will both be 17 strong + Exalted. How would you kit out an Exalted Hero to be most efficient in either of those units? Also is 17 warriors + Exalted and 18 warriors alone good # unit sizes for 2500 pt games?
Also about the hellcannon...a lot of people I've been reading use them mostly to charge up and go into CC. So...it's not really used for shooting that much? Thats so weird to me! I've just recently started WHFB and I thought war machines are usually for shooting. lol...can someone explain this to me? If hellcannons are used mostly for running up to people and trying to CC them does that mean we really have no good shooting anywhere? lol... >_< How do you deal with shooting armies then?
Regarding the HCannon...if it's only used as CC beast is it worth taking? Wouldn't 2x warshrines + Chosen be a better CC combo than running Hellcannons? Are they really that good in CC to be running a warmachine up like that? (Sorry for the Hcannon question spam. I want to learn more about them because I drop $ to actually buy 2 of them...)
Also I've read a lot of people using dogs (the core dogs) for diverting and other misleading tactics. What is that? I am doing an army swap that has 10 dogs in it and was wanting to use them as best as they could. How do you use dogs properly? A lot of "tournament lists" I've seen use 2x groups of 5 dogs...but they seem to not have enough str to really kill or do anything...
Thoughts of Warrior Knights? Too expensive and not competitive enough?
*Note: I am going to be entering a league for WHFB soon so I'm going to want a very competitive list/units/army as the people I play regularly have really good armies/lists as well. Not many play any fluff stuff here with my friends and I.*
Thanks for you guys help!
18 Warriors is pretty much bang on for unit size.
Hellcannons are awesome in combat, my advice would be not to fire them at all unless absolutely essential. Lead the charge with them. They're unbreakable so they are the ultimate tarpit and they're pretty hard to wound as they have high toughness, armour AND a ward (dwarf) save.
Exalted: The build above isn't bad, but I generally reserve the 4+ ward for an expensive lord / my general. My "usual" build is Halberd, Shield, Collar of Khorne, Dragon Helm, Iron Curse Icon with Mark of Tzeentch. This guy is normally my BSB. Sorcerers can't be BSBs, heros only. I think you meant that sorcerer lords are usually the general? This is normal for us. Our combat Lord is massive overkill, since our heroes are better than a lot of armies' lord choices. It's not economical to buy a lord just for his leadership, especially since we're all (mostly) Ld8 anyway.
For 2500 my army would usually consist of a lv 4 sorc lord (general) and an exalted BSB. 2 Hellcannons and 3 x 5 dogs are the first things on the list for me, almost every time. They are 5 "dummy drops" as talismanictattoo put it, drop them (almost) anywhere and wait for your opponent to commit his useful troops, then you counter deploy I also like forsaken for this in bigger games, but I wouldn't recommend them in 2500 as we have better units. Spawn too, but again very overpriced and highly unreliable; they are options I would only take to fill up space on the list and win deployment in a bigger game.
Knights: I'm still undecided and I've been playing a while. They are very durable with their 1+ armour save (I lost only one in 3 turns riding into dark elf repeater crossbow volley fire, 150 odd shots) but that's about all they have to be honest. In combat they're basically the same as a chaos warrior with a halberd (fear almost never does anything). Don't get me wrong, the durability is a very strong selling point for them but beware lore of metal and things that ignore armour saves (goblin doom divers for instance) or high strength war machines that don't care how good your armour is! I reckon I probably take knights about 50-60% of the time.
the think with chaos lords is that they are not really needed
if you issue a challange with your chaos lord there are not many people stupid enough to accept so all he does is kill 1 extra spearman or something
18-21 warriors is perfect but you cld also do it by mark so if you ar nurgle you go 21 (mutiple of 7), 24 for khonre ( and 18-27 for tzeentch (9)
i wldnt bother with slaanesh unless its marauders but khorne is better on them
dogs are awsome
they dont kill anything but thats not what they are there for
in this eddition charging doesnt give you much bonus's but i have found that it makes a huge deal on who's magic turn it is
so if the 1st turn of combat is in your magic pahse then you have a massive advantage
as for characters, try not get carried away
at most you shld have no more than 4 but really 3 is the perfect number (sorcerer lord with puppet, sorcerer with dispel scroll and bsb)
knights are very much hit or miss
imagine have two wounds from archers and rolling double 1's
however they can be awsome: my 1st game against skaven in 8th and i ran 10 of them in a striaght line into 80+ clan rats, they then got flanked on both sides by 2 smaller units of 25 clan rats and they killed them all
thats 10 knights killing 130 rats and I only lost 1 knights
actualy after i killed all the rats my comet came down killing all the knights which was rather funny
i would wait buying a hellcannon until you know what you want to do with your list and i wld take warshirnes atm
however if you all ready have hellcannons i will post a link to my panic list where you make everything just panic of the board (unless they roll double 1's or immune to physco)
do you have any marauders?
im just wondering what you are running at 2.5k
i have 21 warriors, 18 chosen, 50 marauders, hellcannon, warshirne, sorcerer lord, sorcerer and bsb
everything has tzeentch and all characters on discs
Dude, unless you are playing a tournament for money or something, wins v losses don't matter at all. The point is you have fun. I can honestly say I've never run the exact same army twice in the year or so I've been playing this game. If I have, its just due to pure chance... I've played with Giants, with Forsaken, with Trolls and Dragon Ogres. I've run a Horde of Chosen once. Have fun, there is no WRONG way to play. Always remember that. This is most definitely NOT a game for people who can't stand losing. Because you will lose, and lose a lot. Use your Hellcannons as warmachines if you like, you'll love to see that 20 man unit of blackguard flee once in a blue moon. Plus this keeps your opponent guessing.
There are 'ideal' builds and things, but if you're just starting out, just mess around, like was said above. You'll be a better player for it.
Not sure where jgascoine011 gets his numbers from, but if 18-21 is "perfect" (for the record I disagree) then how can 21 Nurgle, 24 Khorne or 18-27 Tzeentch be correct if you're numbering them according to mark? The accepted opinion on here is that 18 is a solid unit size (3x6 formation), if anything you need less Nurgle/Tzeentch because of the extra protection their marks offer. To be honest the numbers depend on what your unit is for: Khorne are a hammer unit and they just need bodies to soak archery fire until you close to CC; Nurgle and Tzeentch are Anvils and are built to take a hit and hold off foes.
I'm also very skeptical about that knight story... Assuming a best case scenario the knights had the Banner of Rage, a champion, and the whole frontage of 10 could get into combat - giving the unit 51 attacks per round. Assuming both the knights and horses are hitting on 3s (a fair assumption, especially with fear) then 2/3 of them will hit for 34 hits. Assuming these all wound on 2s (possibly generous since the horses most likely wound on 3s) then 5/6 of these will wound. Assuming no saves of any kind this means that you could expect an "average" result of 28.3 wound per round, which means it would take 5 combat rounds to eliminate 130 clan rats.
1) Not many people put banner of rage on knights and this contributes nearly half of the attacks per round in the above calculation
2) Getting all 10 bases into contact is pretty unlikely but not impossible
3) Chaos Steeds (S4) wound skaven (T3) on 3s not 2s
4) Clanrats come with light armour as standard and shields for half a point which would entitle them to a 6+ save vs the horses, and a 6++ parry save vs any attack
5) My calculation above doesn't factor in when the single casualty was lost; it can't have been in the final round (since there wouldn't have been any skaven left by their initiative in order to deal it) which means it must have come earlier in the combat and therefore would subtract 5 attacks per round from the calculation.
Also one needs to factor in the use of magic and miscellaneous effects i.e. Warshrine. If your knights received help in this fight beyond their normal army book stats then it's a bit dishonest to try and suggest how good they are without disclosing all the information.
Of course it's always possible to get lucky, but even if EVERY attack hit and wounded it would still take 3 combat rounds to kill them all off. Nevertheless the liklihood is you'd have a lot less attacks per round than the "best case scenario", and with average dice rolls and appropriate saves I think your knights would have been tar-pitted for pretty much the whole game. And in any case 10 knights with full command and banner is over 450 points, so 130 clan rats (520 points) have probably done their job if they've kept 10 knights away from the expensive troops for the whole game.
I do not have any marauders. Sadly I really do not like the way the models look and I much prefer Warriors of Chaos.
To answer what I am running at 2.5k is going to be...
Sorc Lord L4
18 warriors Tz
18 warriors Khorne or Tz (I can't decide...)
2-3x 5 Warhounds
That's what I have so far...the rest of my list from there is going to go 1 of two ways. I'd like feedback on which would be the most competitive and reliable since I am entering a tournament league.
I'm either going to:
2x Warshrine + Chosen deathstar (thinking of 15 5x3)
What are your guys thoughts? Appreciate all the help so far guys! VERY helpful!
Army list construction comes second to play experience and skill.
In order for you to be successfull with your army you need to practice a lot so that you learn how your units work, what they can do and what they can't, how you react to certain battlefield setups and how you counter threats to your own strategy.
Do you have a strategy? No.
Do you know what that non existing strategy is thratened by? Of course not.
Are you an aggressive player or a defensive? I don't think you know.
That mean you can't adjust to another aggressive/defensive player.
These things takes time and experience to figure out. And you can't read your way to this knowledge because it's all dependent to what playstyle you are most comfortable playing.
An experienced tournament player will use a crappy list and make mince meat with a hardcore WoC list used by a newbie. That's because he know's the ins and outs of his troops.
I'd recomend you get at least a 20 or more games under your belt at tournament level before playing for money.
If you're just starting playing WoC I'd recomend you get at least 50 or so games experience at varying points levels and FRIENDLY.
Friendly games are for learning. there's nothing for a newbie to learn at a tournament because it all moves so fast and your mistakes can't be regulated because they've most certainly cost you the game in 1 or two turns.
This sounds pretty harsh, but I've seen so many people get into tournament play too fast just to have all the fun of playing sucked out of the hobby and leaving thir miniatures on the shelf.
"The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"
Umm..I didn't feel like posting a whole wall of text explaining myself and my plan for becoming a better player and what I know I need to do before entering the tournament scene. Obviously people think I'm going to be walking into the tournament scene blind and without at least 30+ games of practice with my list and other woc units.
I'm asking questions and just seeking answers. I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand on how to understand that experience is obviously key to being a better player. I already know that.But whatever...thanks for your concern but its not needed.
Last edited by Syypher; July 8th, 2011 at 23:13.