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Hi everyone! I just got back from my first game(s). Played dwarves and HE. 2500 pts, no named characters, no power scroll.
Here are my immediate thoughts on my games:
Well that's all for now I'm going to crash...any advice or guidance on how to run my army better or to fix/replace some units (like Chaos Knights) would be much appreciated!
- Hellcannons are amazing. I was thoroughly impressed with how resilient they are at shooting. However when I got into CC vs the dwarf guy and his wall of long bears and hammer guys they got decimated in 2 turns. They were str6 and I guess I should not have ran them into charging them...I really liked how much damage they could do though. One thing I need to brush up on is how the demon + handlers are assaulted in CC. I was unsure of the ruling and just followed whatever the guy had said.
- Tz warriors are total beasts as an anvil unit. Their 3+ armor save and 5+ (Ironcurse Icon Hero + Tz) ward save when getting shot and then in CC 3+ and 6+ is pretty awesome. I had the rapture banner too which was really good.
- With warriors in general a lot of people take 18 in 2500 pt games and I'm still unsure if that's enough. Sometimes it feels like it's not but some other times it felt like 18 was a good number.
- Marauders in hordes of 40 with GW and MoK are awesome. Nothing really else needs to be said for this. So cheap and so deadly and so many...love it.
- Chaos Knights...I ran 5 with MoZ, Musician, Standard and Blasted Standard. They all survived into CC but I was not impressed by them at all. Looking for a replacement for their 200+ points thats actually good or maybe some guidance on how to run them.
- The Hero on disk was awesome but I think I need to gear him out differently. I had him with a Disc, Halberd, MoT, Shield, Stream of Corruption, Dragonhelm, and Golden Eye of Tz. When I got into CC I wrecked things but his ward save needs to be better IMO. He was brought to 1 wound by a chariot that cost like nothing when I played vs HE. Then after that I was so afraid of going anywhere with him in case he would die. I think his save needs to be better but I don't have enough experience yet to judge this...
- The magic phase didn't feel very powerful at all. I had read and heard that we have a very strong magic phase but I didn't see it very much. Probably because I'm use to playing DoC and taking any lore I want and having all the spells...I had shadow on my L4 Sorc Lord and I don't know...it didn't feel that awesome. Miasma was awesome to cast and the doll came in handle once to bring a 3 on the miscast to a 6 instead. (For me) Any advice or tips on how to do the magic phase on a L4 Sorc + L2 Sorc. Should I maybe take fire? What better compliments our lists?
- Warhounds were awesome. So cheap for blocking and taking charges. Love them!
sounds like you gathered the same amount of experience in your first games than has taken most of us, dozens and dozens of games to figure out
a few comments on your points.
1: the hellcannon follows the rules for monsters and handlers. That means that everytime you take a wound (after armour saves etc doesnt matter if its from shooting or close combat) you roll a dice, on a roll on 1-4 the hellcannon take the wound as normal, on a roll on 5-6 you loose 1 of the 3 crew instead.
That means you basicly have 3 ward saves on 5+ on your hellcannon (on the expense on loosing your crew)
Also, remember hellcannons have thunderstomp (D6 str5 hits after hits have been resolved. wounds caused by thunderstomp will count towards combat result aswell) Also your crew have 1 attack each, and cannot be targeted seperate from your hellcannon.
to sum it up
Hellcannons have 5 str 5 attacks
Crew have 3 str 3 attack (1 pr. crew alive)
D6 str 5 hits (thunderstomp)
When people attack you (either with shooting or cc) they roll against the hellcannons Toughtness. If they wound, and you fail your armoursave, roll a D6
1-4 the hellcannon takes the wound.
5-6 one of your 3 crew takes the wound instead of the hellcannon.
2: only comment is, that you actually have a 5+ wardsave in CC with TZ warriors with shields.
If you have a shield you have a 6+ parry save against attacks in close combat (from the front only) in the rulebook, a parrysave is a 6+ ward save, which mean that combined with MoT, your wardsave is improved by 1, to a 5+ "parry save" in closecombat.
3: the amount of warriors in a unit varries indeed. the most common formation is the 6x3 or 5x3. The reason why it is not common seeing large units of warriors is, that you loose out on ALOT of attacks if you place all your eggs in 1 basket.
The front rank have 2 attacks each, 3 with Mark of Khorne, 4 if you have MoK AND add handweapon.
the 2nd rank have.... 1 attack each.
3rd rank have.. well, they look pretty! and cost alot.
We usually dont win combat by having lots of rank bonus etc. WoC are mostly about smashing through the enemy unit and get combat resulution from the kills rather than the static rank bonus/banner. Our units are too pricy for standing in ranks, and not smashing faces.
4: no comments! Marauders are awesome with GW and MoK
Chaos knights are really good under the right circumstances.
1+ armoursave, 2 str 5 attacks (3 with MoK)
The thing is, their attacks are magical, so against something like VC they really shine, beeing able to tear through his etherals, or holding off a massive block of ghouls, as his poison attacks will probly bounce of the 1+ AS. Again, they can really shine under the right circumstances. dont give up on them yet, but try to use them in a few more games before disregarding them entirely =)
you could try the talisman of endurance, MoT, and a charmed shield, that would be a 2+ AS, 3+ ward and you disregard the first hit on anything by a 1 on a D6. (very handy vs a cannonball, which is likely to be shot at him)
7: Lore of Tzeentch!
Pandemonium, Treason of Tzeentch and Infernal gateway are without a doubt 3 of the most powerfull spells in the game.
Lots of armies have lots of power dices, or dispell dices. WoC can get.. LOTS of + to cast!
lvl 4 +4 to cast
MoT +5 to cast
Book of ashure on your lvl 4 +6 to cast
take a lvl1 sorc with skull of katam, place him within 3 inces of your lvl 4
and.. your lvl 4 now have +7 to cast spells (+5 to dispell) .
pandemonium... try to have a game vs. orc and goblins with this in effect with a few hellcannons.. (combined with doom totem, and/or with a lvl 1-2 sorc with doom and darkness from lore of death)
GL making that panic check -1 (-2 if you have doom totem, -5 if you also managed to cast doom and darkness on the unit you hit with your hellcannon). oh.. and.. due to pandemoium you cant use your general, or any of your charecters leadership.
not to mention the enemy wiz will miscast on any roll of a double. (combine that with infernal puppet? =) )
Treason of tzeentch. See that big dwarf warrior block with great weapons? well, now they all attack eachother with their str 6 against their T4. Yep, Awesome!
infernal gateway.. bit random, but with some luck you can completly make his strongest and biggest unit disappear in 1 turn with no saves of any kind (incl. characters). ill take that
8: warhounds are indeed awesome misdirectors
-Vanish over and out
Last edited by Vanish; July 16th, 2011 at 15:46.
Quote Lord Borak
Now now lads. This is a forum about grown men playing with toy soldiers. Lets be adults please.
1) the hellcannon
although this is good in combat i completly disagree with some people that it is best in combat
if its shot hit (1/3 chance of a direct hit) will decimate alot more than it can kill
i played with it 2day and 1st turn if scored a direct hit against his unit of 20 black guard, 5 were left standing after
the hellcannon is good in combat but like most monsters now, it shld be used as a support role
2) i agree, 18 warriors is too small i find unless its with mark of khorne and halberds
I prefer 21-24 warriors as this seems to be the right amount of killiness and they can take casualties
3) chaos knights really are hit or miss in this edition (which i prefer as they are no longer broken)
never run them into a horde of units with great weapons or anything that makes them -2 to there save as they just cant take the casualties
they are best used to break through a flank and run down warmachines etc or to pin down something like a horde of goblins (anything with only -1 to the save)
and dont bother with command and banners for a unit of 5
4) always run shadows
your right, you wont see much but shadows isnt supposed to be some awsome destructive spell but rather help you win combat etc
1st of all enfeebling and withering are both remains in play
this means that ur opponent will have to use dispel dice to get rid of it in his own magic phase
2nd misma means that any WS3 model will be hitting you on 5's and not 4's
3rd you can use misma to lower the I of a unit by D3 and then use pit of shades to wipe it out
4th you can lower the S and T by D3 and then use curse of the leper to again wipe out a unit
Sounds good, my friend!
The guys before me have mentioned just about everything there is to say - the Mark of Tzeentch + parry save one is especially important (you gotta remember that one ).
@Vanish : Wow man! Thanks for the insight! The guy who we were playing told me he was sure he could roll in CC against my dwarves toughness and that he could choose what to attack in CC. I assumed he was right since he said he played at a lot of tournaments and stuff. I SHOULD have looked it up though :/
Thanks for the clarification on the Tz ward save!
I will try out some of your suggestions for my Disc heros saves!
Man your awesome! Thanks for the great explanation on Lore of Tz. I never really liked it at first glance when I read it but your making me change my mind for sure! Wow! All those bonus to casting sounds really great too! Thanks for your all comments and advice!
@Jga: Thanks again man. Ya most ppl have said to run the Hellcannon in CC but I will try shooting it next time to get a feel for how it goes. I pretty much disregarded it as shooting and just treat it as a monster but I'll try that out. Still feeling around with the WoC army
As far as shadows go it seems great. I will probably still run 1 sorc as shadow. Maybe my Hero with the Book but I'm thinking of trying out Tz. Do you think Shadow is THAT much better than Tz that I shouldn't run Tz and just run shadow on my Book Hero + my L4 Sorc Lord + if I take another L1-2 Sorc?
Thanks for your advice!
Nice- although this could have gone in the "Experiences" thread stickied at the top of this section. Anyways, here's what I'll offer- it's all a bit mixed together, so I won't bullet it out like the others did.
Hellcannons are great in combat as long as you're not up against something with S6. I think people missed that in your description. I actually use mine as Tarpits, with T6, 5 wounds, Unbreakable, Sv4+ and what amounts to a 5+ wardsave that you can pass 3 times, the thing is great at guarding the flanks of the army. With two of them working side by side, you should be able to pummel the enemy into submission, as long as he's not Steadfast.
As far as unit sizes go, I cap my regiments at 18, unless I have some ridiculous plan for VP denial. The more Warriors you have in the unit, the more guys you have just standing around picking their noses and making you feel comfortable that you'll hold up against shooting. Honestly, I only need 10-12 guys to get into combat to win fights, I can afford to lose 6. And they're Warriors... that's a lot of damage to soak up to lose that many guys. For 24 Warriors, I could put in 2 regiments of 12, which is the better choice honestly. Both are less than optimal, but atleast with 12 warriors in, I have 12 warriors fighting, and I offer two targets for unit-wide spells like Dwellers or Gateway.
Tarpits are also sort of a silly idea for Warriors. I have two jokes when it comes to our army:
1- don't flank us, it just gives us more attacks.
2- if I'm tarpitting you, it means it's not worth the effort to actually kill you. Insulted yet?
Basically, there aren't many things that we look at and say "man, I don't want that hitting my Warriors". We're an expensive army as it is, we don't really have the points to just throw something in front of a brutal enemy regiment and watch it die. Luckily, we're a very elite army, and there isn't much that we can't put a regiment or two on and obliterate in a few rounds of good fighting. Hell, last game my 30 Marauders bounced a frontal charge from a Stegadon and 15 Saurus Warriors. They broke and ran, but I wounded the heck out of the steg and took out the entire Saurus regiment.
What I'm saying is- you don't really need those Tzeentch Tarpits of doom. Just take killy warriors and use your Cannons or Warshrines to hold up the enemy for a turn or two.
Knights are iffy for me. They're basically just Warriors who happen to pay 34pts for a Horse and a magic halberd. That's the price of 2 more Warriors right there. They move really fast, but I fail to see the advantage to that anymore- with all the big steadfast regiments and the focus on large blocks of infantry, Warhammer has lost a lot of the tactical macro-maneuvering and turned into a game of battelines with lots of micro-maneuvering. Basically, "tactical placement" is moving that regiment forward to guard the flank of your Warriors who are lined up at an angle with LoS to three or four enemies, ready to charge whoever crosses the line first. It used to be a game where you could really control the entire table. Now, you only control what's behind your lines, and about 8" in front of you. Knights don't fit into that picture, unless you're willing to throw them away as Shock-troopers and make early game charges. In which case MoK is your best bet.
Disc Riders are similar. Unless you're trying to roll The Purple BowlingBall of Xerxeus down a flank, do you need that kind of mobility? Sure, hunting Warmachines is great, except that you just dropped a 200+pt character onto the field to hunt down half his value in gunnery. If a cannon targets this guy and puts him on the floor, it just made back enough points to pay for half the entire artillery line, no doubt. Most characters are smart enough to hide in friendly units, and your Disc might drag them out, but they're just going to swamp your disc and kill him.
As for magic- I was a Shadows guy myself for a long time. I was one of the first people to put together the Festus/Shadow combo to kill off entire enemy regiments, but I'll tell you: it's not worth it. Really. People will rarely ever let you get that combo off, since it's pretty well known already (or will be once you use it), so they'll lure out your dice on the first cast, let it through, and then stop your Festus cast. Wasted dice accomplished- advantage: Enemy!
Better, run a L4 and give him Heavens. THIS is a Lore that Warriors can use. Shadows takes what we do, and makes us do it a little better. Heavens takes what we need, and does it extremely well.
Warriors don't like to move far. Guess what, you want your opponent out of his DZ, spend the first turn or two dropping Comets on his head. You can cast through it, so it's like dropping an Orbital Bombardment on someone in 40k.
Shadows- you want to use Miasma to make combat a little easier, well, how about rerolling all 1's to Hit, Wound, and better yet: ARMOR SAVES. Yeah, Knights with a 2+ become pretty much invincible with this on board, and Warriors with shields may as well have a 2+ save as well.
Curse of the Midnight Wind is the same thing, except now your enemy needs to reroll 6's to hit, wound, and save. With T4, this is brutal against S3 foes, and it means that most people won't get much of a save against us. This is the only reason to take Mark of Nurgle on Warriors.
IceShard also makes sure that BS-based shooting has a hard time, and can totally shut down the thing that scares us most: Warmachines.
Then there are lots of great S6 damage spells all throughout the lore for those turns when you just don't really need the extra help.
Heavens is truly the way to go in my opinion. Try it out, and see how you like it.
I never really use Warhounds either. Sure, they can redirect an enemy to keep them from what? Charging warriors? Go for it- charge my Warriors. +1 CR for charging you in the flank is nothing compared to what I'm going to do to you in combat. "But Captain, a flank charge means they don't get ranks, and they won't attack back with as much stuff". Well, if it saves 2 warriors it might be worth the 30pts that I paid for those Hounds (of course, they have to wipe out the whole Warriors regiment to get those 30pts), and again- it doesn't cancel Steadfast to flank them, and that's all that I'm really worried about. WARRIORS EAT MOST REGIMENTS FOR LUNCH. Who cares who does the charging or gets the flanks. We're Warriors for Khorne's sake!
I know that my strategies seems like someone who doesn't really understand the game, but honestly, it's quite the opposite. I've trimmed all the fat off of my army. Most of the time, people can't believe that I'm playing at 2500pts, or they think that my troops are all WAY too cheap for how great they are. And guess what- it's true. Chaos Warriors are brutal for their cost, so why not spare as much extra "tactical flash-and-bang" and just field a wall of the best core regiments in the game?
All in all, some interesting comments, Cap. I have some of my own:
The price you're paying for the horse and the magical +1 S attacks is 24, not 34. That's a big difference.
How much meat you have on your Warriors depends on who you're facing - 12 Warriors are great, until you run into troops with S6 attacks and the like, who can actually kill you. My playgroup is composed of mainly that. Ergo, those squads would just die (sure, they'd take some of the enemy with them, but they'd die nonetheless), especially against Horde formations. I feel that this is more meta-dependent than you're giving it credit for.
I can see your misgivings on Disc Riders, and I share them, to an extent. That said, I am going for the rather off-the-wall idea of packing a Daemon Prince, so I'm not totally against it. I'm also totally with you on Lore of Heavens - that's the Lore of choice for me when packing WoC.
I'm coming around to the concept of chaff units, but I like going for Skirmishers more than I do Dogs. Since WoC doesn't have easy access to them, I saw "to Chaos with the chaff" and field more beatsticks, especially when I can get 6 Marauders for the price of 5 Dogs.
Untrue. Page 55 of the BRB specifically says "It should be noted that a unit does not lose its steadfast bonus for being disrupted." Only the combat resolution bonus is lost.