Question: What to do about Blackguard? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Lolthien's Avatar
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    Question: What to do about Blackguard?

    I just finished a 1500 point game tonight. Thought I'd try something a bit new: Chosen.. I rarely if ever use them. Here's the layout of both sides.

    Me:
    Tzeentch Lord on Disc w/ Helm of Many Eyes, Berserker Sword and add'l hand weapon
    Lvl 2 Sorc of Fire with Spell Familiar
    BSB with Rapture Standard, Nurgle
    17 Chosen with Frenzy Banner, Nurgle, additional hand weapons + Champion with Glaive of Putrefaction (sorc went here)
    18 Warriors, Nurgle, Blasted Standard, (BSB here)
    5 Dogs
    5 Dogs

    Him:
    Lvl 4 Sorceress on Steed
    12 Repeater Crossbowmen
    12 Repeater Crossbowmen
    13 Repeater Crossbowmen
    18 Blackguard
    18 Blackguard with Murder Banner
    Hydra
    Bolt Thrower

    My sorc and chosen effectively destroyed one unit of Blackguard (thanks to 9 wounds from a fireball) but when they closed in my Sorc was targeted and killed before I could strike back. My lord managed to kill a unit of crossbowmen. He killed my characters (and that's all) due to my Lord failing a restrain check and pursuing into the path of his bolt thrower, and he still doubled my victory points. So I suck badly

    But here's my actual question. His other blackguard unit flanked my unit of Warriors and tore through them (though they actually survived with a single model till the end of the game) But at 13 points a piece, reroll all attacks, stubborn, and Immune to Psychology.. what is the best way to take them out? It would seem a unit of Blackguard vs Warriors would win every time, for less cost. Any advice?


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  3. #2
    LO Zealot rothgar13's Avatar
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    Halberds and Mark of Khorne. You're spitting out 3 attacks per guy to his 2, at a much higher rate of wounding, though he will out-hit you rather handily. Also, pack bigger units so you get a chance to land those wounds (that said, you'll still have a 5+ armor save, 6+ if he brings the Banner of Murder). He has a maximum unit size - you don't, so use it to your advantage. It's also good VP denial, forcing him to come fight you.

    Some math-hammer on this - let's say he brings 20 Black Guard with the Banner of Murder and full command (total 320 points). For that point total, we can bring 18 Khorne Chaos Warriors with Halberds, Shields, and a Musician. Let's assume the Black Guard is in 6 x 3 with 2 hangers-on, and the Chaos Warriors are in 6 x 3 as well (no sense for the BG to stick to 5-wide, as they're going to lose at least one guy in this combat, and all 6 ranks of the Chaos Warriors will be in base contact).

    Now, the BG will get a total of 19 attacks. They hit on a 4+ with Hatred, and wound on a 4+. The Chaos Warrior has a 6+ armor save against this attack.

    Math - Black Guard:
    (19)*(3/4)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 285/48 = 95/16 = 5.94 unsaved wounds.

    That wasn't enough to cut into the Chaos Warriors' attacks (though it did basically lop off a whole rank), so now they'll get their full 24 attacks back. They hit on a 4+ (no re-rolls, unfortunately), wound a 2+, and negate their armor save completely.

    Math - Chaos Warriors:
    (24)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 10 unsaved wounds.

    As you can see, the Warriors absolutely pasted the Black Guard, to the point that they'll actually lose attacks in the next round of combat - which likely will happen, since the Black Guard are Stubborn. Either way, my point stands in that Khorne Warriors will savage those BG's.
    Last edited by rothgar13; July 17th, 2011 at 07:10.

  4. #3
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    Unless you're bringing 3+ ward/stubborn Chosen you're better off bringin another unit of Warriors and saving some points.

    Rothgar already did the math, good job.

  5. #4
    Drill Sergeant Lord Borak's Avatar
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    Aye you don't really have a lot to worry about against Dark Elves in combat. Their Magic can be nasty, so can their shooting but combat-wise they lack the punch to take us out. The only thing to give you pause for thought about getting close is if he has multiple Chariots and hydras.

    I just played a game Vs Dark Elves and pretty much annihilated the poor fellow. 10 Khorne Warriors with 2 hand weapons took out 30 Corsairs, Witch Elves with Hag (hero?) died to Chaos Knights. His Cold ones died to normal Warriors with 2 hand weapons, Even his Lord on Dragon died to Warriors in Combat (although they were boosted my Mind Razor.

    The only thing that did any damage was Lore of metal Plague of rust combined with his armour piercing shooting. That was pretty much it. So, when in doubt, hit him with Frenzied Warriors with Halberds. If that fails hit him with Frenzied Chosen with halberds. If that fails......... ask to see his army book because something ain't right!.
    Last edited by Lord Borak; July 17th, 2011 at 09:08.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Lolthien's Avatar
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    Alright, well upon reflection, I'm thinking that the flank attack is what hurt so bad. And frankly Mindrazor didn't help much. My problem this particular game was failing to restrain with my General on the disc. If I hadn't pursued the archers into the path of 40-odd archer shots and a volley from a repeater bolt thrower, he would have been 250 points less and I would have been probably 220 points more (as I would have charged his warmachine and archers in the following rounds.

    No beating bad luck I guess.

    As for he chosen, the main reason I brought them was because I could give the champion a magic item. And that Glaive would have made his hydra a 2 str and 2 toughness if I got a hit in on him. Also, I'm a new fan of the berserker sword. Being on a disc puts my lord in base contact with four enemies, so that's 4 extra attacks. So that's nine or ten attacks just from the lord

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    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    I was about to say that I don't think there was anything wrong with your units themselves, just the combination of them. 2 units only is far too few, and likely the major contributor to you getting flanked.

    Black gard are the best the dark elves have to offer in combat, and it still isn't that bad. They are only T3, a horde of GW maraders would punish them beyond recognition.

    as far as the glave of putrification goes, you are dreaming if you think that a unit champion has a hope in hell of using it effectivly. that is a model trapped in a unit at M 4, trying to catch a monster M 6, just not going to happen. Not only that but he's a wimpy str 4 in combat so he has to hit, wound on 5's and than have the saves failed to have the chance of it's effects being known. If you really wanted to try this thing, but it on a hero/lord on the back of a disc, possibly with a potion of str.... however with the amount of magic and shooting coming from the DE I would hesitate to use a disc character at all.

    Also, read the description of the berserker sword and you will see that it is for characters on foot only

  8. #7
    Senior Member Lolthien's Avatar
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    Oooops! Oh well, was fun while it lasted then And I think you're right about the Glaive. It was never a factor.

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    Senior Member Krull's Avatar
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    if i can, i throw in my marauders in those blackguards...
    sure, they die pretty fast, but i've got enough to last at least 2 rounds, or even more, but i can kill them as easy is with my warriors, only, they cost less
    (marauders, MoK, great weapons that is)

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    Senior Member Lolthien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krull View Post
    if i can, i throw in my marauders in those blackguards...
    sure, they die pretty fast, but i've got enough to last at least 2 rounds, or even more, but i can kill them as easy is with my warriors, only, they cost less
    (marauders, MoK, great weapons that is)
    I have tried this in the past, but my marauders get chewed UP by his crossbowmen. If you'll notice the list up there, there are 37 archers, each with two shots.. and all those shots head straight for my marauder horde every time they're on the board. So, 74 shots, hitting on 5-6s (depending if they've moved) and wounding on fours with armor piercing... that's... 24-25 hits, and 12 or so kills. Each round. Not bad if the unit is 40 strong, but then with GW, I strike last, his blackguard take out another 12 - 15, then I have about 12 - 14 men left in that unit, and that's assuming only one round of ranged fire, and no magic comes their way... I have significant trouble keeping marauders alive.

  11. #10
    LO Zealot rothgar13's Avatar
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    Yeah, the Dark Elves are very well suited to chewing up Marauders. It's a pretty bad matchup.

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