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4th game thoughts! I have some "experience in battle" thoughts in this thread but since it has a lot of questions as well asking about particular parts of my army I decided to make a thread instead of posting in the experiences section since it's a bit of both. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I will post there next time.
Ok so thanks everyone here for helping me feel around with an army and get my stuff together. I played my 3rd game today...and it was a crushing defeat. It was vs Skaven at 2500 pts.
-16/18 of my Tz Warriors got dreaded 13th. No dispel school because I used it on a higher casting dreaded 13th in another round of combat.
-I failed all my charges,until the very very end of the game, except 1 Hellcannon charge on the far left flank that tied up some slaves. The Hellcannon was suppose to keep the slaves from tying up my Tz and Khorne warriors from wrecking havoc but I failed all my charges with them rolling too low every time...
-Marauders did awesome as usual. This is the one of the only units so far in my 4 games that has done consistently well!
-Chaos Knights failed 2 Panic tests making them flee, failed 2 again next turn (1 normal 1 reroll), then finally rallied on a 3rd turn. By then they were too far to be anything by useless. These guys have seriously failed me every single game. They have never really done anything worth value. I love the models so much though I want to give them another chance but I'm starting to lose hope. They were ran bare this time and were suppose to take tie up the slaves to let my warriors run free but since they ran I had to use my Hellcannon to do this job.
-Sorcerer Lord was bunkered in the Marauder squad. He was awesome as usual and heavens was pretty good. I'm not 100% sold on heavens yet though but I like it's ability to help what we lack in.
-Warhounds again did amazing. They are great cheap blockers. I'm thinking of running 3 instead of just 2...
-Khorne Warriors did SO much damage when I finally got a charge off at the very end of the game when I had pretty much lost everything. So I can't really judge them very much other than they did a lot of damage. A lot more than expected.
-Hero on Disc did nothing. He failed a t2 charge and was destroyed by rat ogre things in 1 turn. He even had the Enchanted Shield + Talisman of Preservation.
-How would you bunker your Sorcerer Lord? Right now I'm putting him in my Marauders block but I'm not sure if that's what most people do or what not. Trying to think of the best way to secure him. Marauders work well for now but is this optimal?
-Still not 100% sold on Lore of Heavens. I like how it helps us vs shooting which is one of our biggest weaknesses though. The reroll 1s of saves, hits and wounds (1) and the iceshard blizzard (signature spell) were completely awesome. However I'm unsure if the Lore of Tz, Death or Shadow is better. I'll need to read on them more and compare them more in depth. What are your guys thoughts on Lore of Heavens vs the others?
-Chaos Knights...should they be ran on the very very far flank and used staying back and for later game flank charges?
-Khorne Warriors and shooting...what do you do? Seems like they just get fed to the warmachines. I didn't get mine fed to the warmachines this game but they don't have any ward saves so I'm just curious. It's a really expensive unit.
-Having second thoughts on the Hero on a Disc but I think I just ran him wrong. I think he's still got a lot of potential that I haven't worked out yet. What do you guys think about this?
-Most painful question for last. How do you assure you don't lose a crap ton of expensive decked out Tz Warriors to dreaded 13th? Is there anything else we can do other than dispel scroll? It was the 3rd time he casted it. First time I scrolld it. Second time I irresistible dispelled it. Third time I couldn't beat his dispel dice because he has those stones he can add randomly and he rolled 7 to my 5... Any advice on stopping spells? We already pretty much completely lose the shooting phase. I don't want to get owned by the magic phase too. However I think this problem may just be against Skaven. I didn't really face this problem with other armies...as far as magic goes.
Army list looked like:
Sorc Lord L4 Heavens with Marauders
Sorc L2 Shadow - did nothing but hold the Infernal Doll all game. Which I didn't even use...
Hero on Disc
Hero with Tz Warriors
1x 5 Warhounds
1x 5 Warhounds
18x Khorne Warriors, halberds, shields, mus, sb, flaming banner
17x Tz Warriors, shields, mus, sb, rapturous banner
45x Marauders, GWs, full command
5x Chaos Knights - barebones, these guys always seem to do nothing and just give up 200 points
Dreaded 13th can be just nasty, I'd actually say you are very lucky that he never got an irresistible force off on it when he tossed 3 attempts at it. Best I can say about that is maybe take lore of death and target his casters with that spell as much as you can. But also if hes tossing all his dice at that spell, then he's not tossing anymore at anything else really. If you are having problems getting units killed in the shooting phase, try the blasted standard. As far as knights go, I honestly go head first with them, but usually I'll have a lord or hero in the unit with diabolic splendour to put the unit at -1 leadership, it is an EXTREMELY helpful upgrade, I use khorne knights, and I never try to get fancy with em, I've broken 25 man units with just 2 knights before. The marauder bunker isnt bad for your sorc lord, could also consider putting him in the big unit of tzeentch warriors with the hero so that the hero can take the challenges.
I'm a fan of Knights. I'm not sure what you were fighting that caused them to panic. But a 1+ armorsave and 8 movement would be great for a warrior.. which is what these guys are, except with +1 Str magical attacks. If they flee a lot for you for some reason, consider the rapturous banner. Helps immensely with break tests.
Maybe start using the feedback scroll to make him rethink how many dice he uses for a single spell. You might even kill him in the process. Lore of Tzeentch spell Pandemonium is very useful too for this (and against Skaven in general) but obviously to be "guaranteed" to get that you'd need a lvl 4 with spell familiar, which may or may not be worth it.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Ya..one of the reasons I'm not completely throwing the Chaos Knights out yet (even though they did bad last 3 games) is because this game it was probably due to bad dice rolling. They panic'd not because something of the enemies but because my warhounds ran through them. Causing them to panic...then they failed 2x panic tests and flee. Next turn I failed 2 more...rolled extremely high. Then when I needed to charge I rolled extremely low. Everything was going so bad for me with dice rolling.
Thanks for some of the advice guys. I would like to make my Chaos Knights work since I love the way they look so much.
Dreaded 13th screwed me over so much lol. SO many of my tz warriors died. That in combination with failing the combat phase which is the phase we are suppose to win at (because I failed charges all over) just put me in a rut. Hopefully everything will be better next time.
Still feeling around with Lores. I haven't tried Tz yet, I'll probably try that next time!
Any advice or thoughts on where I can put my Sorcerer Lord to bunker him down? I read to put him on a horse and run him around with Marauder Horsemen...not sure how much I like that idea. Thoughts?
I usually put my sorclord with my Tzeentz warriors and it usually works out allright. When you use lore of heavens, the buff from harmonic convergence is a lot better on warriors than marauders. If you happen to run a nurgle sorclord, marauders can be a good home for him since he can give that regen save.
Remember to be careful what you assault with the discrider, rat ogres are not very gentle. He is durable but far from invincible - also don't forget the attack from the disc!
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
The black tongue is nice if your opponents like to throw a lot of power dice around and coupled with infernal puppet, its a winning strategy, tis a bit expensive though but its worth it to get a wizard to blow up
One shall stand, and one shall fall.
There is a 30 point solution to your knight problem - the mark of khorne!
It not only makes them into very effective mincers, that are almost impossible for regular troops to get rid of, but also renders them immune to psychology and therefore totally reliable - send them into a large block of skaven on turn 1 and by turn 4-5 they will have killed most of the unit. Some might argue that the knights could be baited in this frenzied state but they do get to leadership test for the frenzied charge these days.
They are also immune to the dreaded 13th, and slightly better protected against skaven firepower then regular warriors.
Lastly, they serve a vital role when facing skaven - grey seer assassination! Because they are not forced to issue a challenge, they can ride right into his unit and then direct all their attacks on him - if he survives the first wave of attacks, he is unlikely to survive the second.
Skaven magic is an awful thing to face - warp lightning is cheap and powerful, plague and dreaded 13th are up there with the most deadly spells in the game, withering is a pain in the ass because it is a permanent -1 to toughness, scorch is annoying against large marauder blocks....
The shooting is also a big hideous to face, as alot of their things dont have to roll to hit in the first place and can be deadly.
The 'troop assassination' technique is a good way to deal with their characters and prevent them from ducking out if any of our characters turn up with their auto challenge rule - once the general and BSB are slain the est of the army bcomes very skittish and prone to running off.
Double hellcannons should have worked well for you, I would try that again before writing it off.
The disc rider does a fine job of mowing down his irritating war machines, but I wouldnt put him up aganst rat ogres - he is not quite strong enough to beat them consistently- and a hellpit abomination is not worth even considering fighting. Also, with his stream of corruption breath weapon he ought to be killing about 1/3 of an entire unit if you place him nicely.
Magicwise, the lore of slaanesh works wonders against the irritating rats, there are many good spells in this lore that make skaven slaying easier - enrapturing spasms is brutal, tittilating delusions can force a unit to show its flank to you (and skaven being flank charged lose -3 to their leadership and are quite vulnerable after the warriors have hacked them up), hellshreik is amazing (he cannot keep ALL his units within range of the general and BSB so some of them are going to be fleeing after this test), lash of slaanesh can be useful in the early stages, as it hinders his movement and can cause a log jam for the rest of his army. The other two are not quite so useful, but you could still probably find something to do with them at the right point.
Alternatively, you could always do what I did against the last skaven opponent I faced - third eye of tzeentch! If there is one spell that big horde units fear it is plague, and this item gives you the opportunity to rip him apart with it - it also means you do not have to take an expensive level 4 wizard but can get away with, say, a level 2 tzeentch sorcerer (who still gets +3 to cast, so almost as good as the lord for alot less points)
Another thing that they suffer from is lack of mobility - their troops may be movement 5 but he has to field them in such large blocks that they become very difficult to manouvre and our warriors can double team them.
You mentioned failing charges a few times - when did you make these charges? I am operating on the principal now that, unless my opponent comes at me, I will advance for two turns and then make my charge on turn 3 (obviously, knights and disc riders can charge on turn 2) where I KNOW I would have to roll awfully to actually miss out on them - co incidentally, my last battle against skaven worked out just that way and was lost due to missing out on really easy charges!
I used to run an all cavalry khorne army back in 7th edition, as I played almost all my games against a skaven player and so my play style was tailored to try and beat them specifically. Now I like to have more rounded forces, but if you wanted something that was made just to beat up on those nasty little rats I would suggest having all warriors (less models, so less vulnerable to plague or 13th, and much more difficult for his weak troops to kill) and keeping them several smallish units with the mark of khorne.
You also would need to have one unit with a banner of eternal flame to try and give you a chance to kill the hellpit abomination, if he brings it, since that is quite possibly the most destructive monster in the game and can flatten whole regiments of chaos warriors if it gets a few good rolls on the attack table.
Firstly your list is illegal since L2s can't take Shadow.
Secondly I think you have too many points tied up in characters. I tend to have about 1/3 of my points on characters, which usually works out at one sorc lord and two heroes for 2400 pts which is about the size your list looks to be. You should definitely get a BSB. I would ditch the disc hero and consolodate the points into minor tweaks on the other units. The makeup of the list looks fine to me (and very similar to my own usual list), you just need to tweak a few things.
Having your knights panic is unlucky, since that means you took two casualties in one phase AND failed leadership twice, which is quite unlikely. Having said that, running them naked is folly. I see no reason not to mark anything that can be marked. I would also give every unit a banner if I could afford to do so. Bump the knights up to 6, give them MoT and the Banner of Rage. That will give the unit a ward save and 30 attacks, which is a lot tastier than the 15 it currently has.
Give the marauders MoK, they'll pack 50% more punch for not much cost.
I'm not a fan of the rapturous standard, it's the kind of item I'd take only to use up points at the end (which isn't often!)
I tend to bunker my sorc lord and BSB in the same unit (either a chosen death star or the MoT CWs). This is a risk vs armies that have unit killer spells, but in a deathstar bunker they're very well protected. Use the BSB to take items that help buff the unit, my build is:
Exalted, BSB, MoT, Halberd, Shield, Collar of Khorne, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Helm
This also means the BSB acts as challenge protection for your wizard.
The Sorc Lord should have a top notch ward and the puppet. If I have points to spare I take the biting blade too (bargain for 5 points).
Strategicially you shouldn't be using a 200 point monster to "tie up" a worthless tar pit unit just avoid them tar pitting a different unit. The cannon can devastate infantry and it seems a waste to have it spend the whole game cleaving through slaves worth half a point each! In this situation I'd be inclined to get the marauders in there.
wow that was very unlucky game
was he using warp lighting cannon's
if not then there is a very cheesy trick to stop the 13th spell which to put both ur sorcerer's on a steed and then put them in ur warriors units and they become unique units and so the spell has no effect on them
other than that there isnt much u can do other than just push forward and hope for the best
skaven in this edition are just horrible and are probably the 2nd best army in fantasy