Welcome to Librarium Online!
Hi everyone! Before I begin I have to say thanks a bunch for all the help I have gotten from this community! It's been very helpful! I've learned a lot and have enjoyed playing my WoC thoroughly.
One of the things I have learned with WoC is how our general strategy works. We really don't have tons of shooting, mostly the hellcannons but I tend to play them as flankers or CC monstrosities. Our magic phase is pretty good but it isn't anything out of the ordinary really. Compared to what I've seen in other armies our magic phase is pretty average, it's great, but not overwhelming. On the other hand our combat is amazing. We have great durability and hit like trucks. Especially with Khorne Warriors or Khorne Marauders as I have learned from first hand experience!
With that said though it kind of sets us up for easy counters because they know our specialties and fear our specialty, close combat. This leads me to my current problem of my friends just diverting, blocking or abusing my movement of only 4 for my marauders and chaos warriors. We essentially won't get a charge till turn 3 unless lucky or they are coming at us as well. (Assuming armies that want to avoid or tarpit us) My warhounds are not able to fully do their job as they tend to fail their LD5 very easily once shot up a tad bit and they run away, which removes my flank cover.
What do you do to protect our slow combat units? I've been thinking about proxying my Chaos Knights (which have failed me miserably every game ) and taking Marauder Horsemen. Any advice on kiting them out? Is this a good idea? They are much cheaper than my Chaos Knights and they have good speed so may possibly be able to hold for longer.
How do YOU protect yourself from tarpit/anvil units? (Slaves etc.) My opponents are smart and will place stuff in front of me just to keep me there for a couple turns from getting to their more valuable things. If I'm held back for 1 or 2 turns, it's already pretty much over...Takes 3 turns for me to get a charge to what I want crossing the board considering they want to stay away from my combat units. Then if they tarpit me for 1 turn I don't get a charge till turn 4 or later sometimes.
**Note: I can't take Wulfrik. We can't have named characters)
Appreciate any help guys.
Hopefully this isn't bad form, but I'll copy and paste my answer (with a few tweaks) from the other thread.
My first gut reaction on how to avoid getting tarpitted is to make sure you tarpit him first. Use MCav or a small marauder unit that can hopefully last more than a single combat phase to run interference for your Deathstar...
Alternatively, Shadow has an easily cast spell that can lower a units move value by up to D3, so that could possibly reduce the tarpitting unit's movement to 1 or 2, allowing you to go around hopefully.
Alternate alternatively, you could try to cause panic in the unit with a Hellcannon shot or two (I would think this would work very well against Skaven slaves, or any other cheap horde unit where LD is a weakness).
As far as using Mhorsemen instead of knights, I can't see how they'll be in any way more survivable than your knights. They do have the vanguard rule so can get into combat sooner, but every time I've used them they have been shot to pieces. Problem is, if you give them enough armor and a shield, they stop being light cav. Assuming you can use them as flank units they're pretty darn good I'll admit, especially with throwing axes, but in CC or if targeted by ranged, they will die VERY quickly.
dont bother with marauder cav as war hounds do the same thing
the thing is is that for marauder cav to be effective you need to have them in units of 10+ to hit the unit in the flank and deny ranks
however if you take 10 marauder cav you cld take 5 knights instead and they will do better in combat
tar pit units tend to be low strength and toughness (slaves, ungors, zombies etc) and so a hellcannon will tie them up for the entire game
also there is the unkillable, deadlord but the warshrine will be able to hold him up
other than that good deployment shld make sure ur elite units are not tarpitted
How do you generally deploy to not get tarpitted? I know this is falling under the general strategies now but any advice on how to deploy to counter getting tarpitted? It seems if they run more than 1 tarpit unit which most lists that dont want to enter combat do, they can always place one across from you CC specialists.
No to marauder horsemen then? lol that was fast
But anyways, back to my original point-
There's a difference between a Tarpit, and an Anvil. Anvils are the big beffy regiments that hold the center of the enemy line and are worth a LOT of points if you kill them. Dickenhof Guard, Phoenix Guard, WoC Chosen Bus, they're all Anvils. They're hard to kill and you can guarantee that they'll stick through the whole battle. Avoiding them with WoC is actually silly of us, because it's typically worth the 3-4 rounds of combat that it can take for our basic Warrior regiments to carve through them (yes, our Warriors are that good) provided we keep our flanks covers, as the usual tactic for anvils is to pin an enemy into the grind and then flank them to break them that much faster.
Tarpits on the other hand are the big 100-man blocks of Skaven Slaves who just really aren't worth the time it takes to kill them. Sweet, I got 200pts for killing those Slaves. That was worth holding up my 278pt block of Warriors for 4 turns...
Knowing this however, points out how you should be dropping these guys. Marauders are our "anti-tarpit" blocks. We can get 40 of them for the same price as those 100 rats, and although we'll probably lose the first round of fighting, we'll either hold or tear right through that unit. Free stuff for us. Like Lolthien said, we can send in the Hellcannon or Warshrine to hold those units up as well- although be aware that the Warshrine isn't quite the best choice, because you'll be losing combats and might haul tail. Hellcannons rock though, because they're Unbreakable and damn near unkillable for T3 opponents, while they rip out ~8 or so of their foes each turn.
Also, a lot of these really scary tarpit units are Horded, and we can always reform after a victorious round of combat. The trick here is to gauge where you can break their Steadfast if you were in a 5-wide formation, then reform to maximize your frontage and pound them. A lot of people (especially those of us using movement trays) forget to change formation during the course of a game. Nothing is as important. Yeah, Warriors should be in units of 15-18, but that doesn't stop you from maxing out to 12 wide and cranking forward 24 attacks with your first rank- especially if you've given your men MoK and/or Extra Handweapons. Usually if you reform in the midst of that, and start pounding forward 36+ attacks, those "tarpits" start to disintegrate in a hurry.
We've also got some spells that work well. 'Titillating Delusions' from Slaanesh is a great spell. It's RiP, which isn't as awesome because your opponent will just get rid of it in his own magic phase (which does burn off some Power Dice of course), but during his movement phase he has to move full-tilt towards a spot that you pick. So you can pull those big unwieldy tarpits into each-other's way, or turn them to hit them in the flank, pull them out of the way, or pull the juiciest targets right into your path. 'Ecstatic Seizures' can also be a decent spell, although a little less tough to pull off now with the BSB rules. Essentially, Frenzy his anvil, and bait it into one of your other units (Hounds, if you run them) and that should get him out of the way. Slaanesh is a movement-based lore, so if you really find that Tarpits are causing that much trouble, dedicate a caster to stopping them. There are other spells in Slaanesh which can harm low-stat cannon fodder like Anvils, so this lore is really good at taking down the stuff that gets in our way.
Heavens also has it's uses. Since I've been touting Heavens to everyone for a while now, I guess I should point out what can be done with this lore, to help affect movement phases. Firstly, you have the obvious 'Wind Blast', which literally just shunts a regiment out of your way. You've also got The Comet, which you can cast into the middle of his formation and watch his good targets scramble while his Tarpits take some serious damage when the comet hits (if it even gets the tarpits to scatter, more power to you).
There is also the Third-Eye available spells from Light, and a L2 available spell from Fire. 'Net of Amyntok' from Light can freeze a unit up in a hurry, forcing them to take a toughness test in order to move. Fire can cast 'Fulminating Flame Cage', which will either halt a unit for a turn, or drop some serious hurt on them for moving. If they move, they can expect to lose almost 1/3 of their unit on average.
Other ways to remove an entire unit include the Tzeentch 'Gateway', the NurgeShadow 'Wither/Enfeeble&Curse' combo, 3rd-Eye Dwellers, and Tzeentch's 'Treason' spell. These will destroy or seriously damage Tarpits, making them that much easier to deal with.
Admittedly, my store doesn't have many units that use Tarpits, but whenever I see them, they typically don't cause many problems. If your opponent is trying to dodge you by feeding you units, he's also feeding you points. And while you're slowly but inevitably chewing through 200pts of Slaves, he can't shoot at or cast much magic onto your 300pt regiments. Yeah, he's hiding out and denying you victory points, but he's feeding you a lot of points as well. All it takes is a concerted magic effort against his favorite units (Death'ing/Bubo'ing his Characters or Fire/Tzeentch/Hellcannon his anvils) to score you a few more points. If you don't get into his anvils until turn 4, no worries- you can probably still score some points from him by potentially breaking him. Warriors aren't a finesse-based army. We need to keep our unit count up, our flanks defended, and essentially just roll our way across the board. If we hit tarpits, we have to admit that we'll be hung up and press on with more units. This is why I always tell new players to keep their character-count to a minimum, keep their Warriors in regiments smaller than 20, and keep the number of physical units on the field to a maximum.
Sorry for the long post.
I'd like to lay emphasis on a little gem hidden inside the Captains (excellent) post - MSu (multiple small units). While generally out of fashion, warriors can pull this off quite effectively - a unit of 12 Warriors 6x2 does not take much longer to munch through a skaven tarpit then a unit of 18. You won't loose many men, and the additional rank is essentially dead weight against most things (i.e things that can't reliably kill warriors). But deploying your warriors in three units of 12, rather then two of 18 gives you a third unit to run past his tarpits (or hit them in the flank).
The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
The Spears of Slaanesh (Woc): 7/2/5
Battlegroup Chalybso (GK): 7/3/3
You guys never cease to amaze me! Thank you for helping me with this advice that has renewed my faith in my problems. I was really struggling with these issues and due to lack of experience in Fantasy and WoC could not come up with a good enough solution. Will def try out small MSU units to see how that works out for me. As well as changing my mindset when playing them. I guess I worry too much Will try out and check out those lores as well.
Any other advice is much appreciated. I've learned a lot already!
@CaptainSarathai No post is ever too long for me to read. As long as it is as insightful and helpful as yours I would gladly read pages worth!
Bring 3 or more unit of dogs with you and make sure to deploy them first, arbitrarily over the front of your battle line. That should help make your opponent drop a few units down and allow you to counter-deploy to avoid combat matchups that are unfavorable. That is the easiest way to start.
Thanks! I am planning to do just that and take a couple more warhounds than I normally do. It will help me adjust the way my units are placed for sure!
Thinking of taking Lore of Tz with my Sorc Lord. Does Pandaemonium cause double 6's to miscast now instead of irresistible force?
To help me I'm planning on taking more warriors 1 as MSU style like suggested by Castiell. Also going to try Lore of Tz for gateway and to just make my Sorc Lord awesome on a disc. Going to go for a 2+/3++ WS on him and make him fly around and take out War Machines in the background. I know he isn't a CC beast but warmachine crew should be ez for him if he has a biting blade. Thoughts on this?
On a side note: I read someone saying Disc of Tz gives the Sorc Lord +1 armor? How does the Sorc Lord get that? I can't find it in the book >_< I know we have a charmed shield which makes our 4+ a 3+ but how do you get to 2+?
Last edited by Syypher; July 30th, 2011 at 06:10.