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I've recently just purchased a full 2.5k Warriors of Chaos army and there's an opponent at my local club who collects skaven.
There's a couple of issues I'm worried about with Skaven:
1. Hellpit abomination- I have MoK Warriors with halberds and Banner of eternal flame but is that enough?
2. The dreaded 13th spell- How do you deal with this?
3. What's so good about a level 1 MoT sorcerer with 3rd eye of tzeentch?
Ok, so not all questions about skaven but they are related to beating them. The army i use is as follows;
Tailsman of preservation
Sword of Might
Tailsman of Endurance
Mark of tzeentch
19 Warriors of chaos
17 Warriors of chaos
Banner of Rage
17 Warriors of Chaos
Banner of eternal flame
Think that leaves me with 15 points. I haven't put the list up for review as such otherwise i would of put it in army lists. It's really just to give more information on what I have available to me to beat skaven and address those problems. Also if someone could be so kind as the explain the level 1 + third of eye tzeentch combo that would be great.
Just out of curiosity.. and maybe I'm showing my ass in church a bit here... but just because your models have a MoK painted on them doesn't stop you from SAYING they have a different mark right? Same with weapons, banners, even command right? Or is that what you're asking, if you HAVE to use those models as built?
Oh, and the MoT + 3rd eye just means you can use all your opponent's spells, and you get a +2 to cast. +1 for level, and +1 for MoT. A Level 4 MoT Sorc would cast your enemies spells even more effectively than they would themselves.
Last edited by Lolthien; October 25th, 2011 at 21:30.
Well, the 3rd eye allows you to steal the spells of another wizard, but at the expense of being able to cast your own. many people, myself not among them, dislike not being able to use spells that they have payed for, and so minimize the number of obsolete spells by taking the 3rd eye on a lvl 1 wizard. This, however, causes issues because now those spells only have the +1 to cast, which can be countered by a high level wizard dispelling. So, in an effort to help mitigate this imbalance, many players give their 3rd eye sorcerer the Mark of Tzeentch for the additional +1 to cast.
I personally disagree with this ethos. I like to take the 3rd eye on a lvl 4 Disk caster, which A) gives me a very solid +5 to cast my enemy's spells, gives me excellent mobility so as to always have line of sight to a caster that I might want to steal from, and C) gives me more options. There are times that the enemy won't have spells worth stealing (or in the case of Dwarves, not have any spells to steal) and so having the full gamut of Tzeentch spells to rely on can be a huge boon.
As for your issues with Skaven, your list looks pretty good. Their shooting is going to hurt, but it hurts just about everyone equally. The Halberd Warriors should be enough to take on the HPA, especially if they are who Festus is joining. But don't telegraph that they have the Flaming Banner, or he will just stay away from that unit. Also, you should decide what Lore your Sorcerer will take when you make your list.
My main concern with this list is that it is pretty heavy on characters. I see the role that you have defined for each of your characters, so I don't really feel comfortable telling you to drop one or more of them, but I don't go above three characters (Sorc Lord, supporting caster, and BS until at least 2500 points, and generally not until well past 3000 points.
As for the Dreaded 13th, it's called that for a reason. We especially hate it, because it is killing off expensive Warriors, not cheap as chips orc Boyz. Just be aware that it only affects infantry, so Cavalry are exempt. If you were to include some Knights, or even just send your Hell Cannon after the caster, it could help you out in that respect. Also, that spell cannot be cast from combat, so if Wulfrik shows up quickly then you can get a charge and hold him in combat until Wulfrik wills him dead.
Anyways, I hope I didn't ramble too much. Let us know if you have any other questions
@Lolthien : you certainly do not have to run the mark that is painted on the model. What if you went for a consistent Red color scheme because of the fluff of your army, but don't want the mark? Run whatever mark you deem fit. As for actual equipment, most people will let some proxying slide, but I know that I do my best to have the command options there, as well as having at least the front rank equipped with the appropriate gear. Most tournaments, however, are much more strict on this and may enforce that you have the models for command and equipment so as to avoid confusion. But in a friendly game, just ask your opponent before hand and make sure to be very clear what is where
Last edited by Papa_Wheely; October 25th, 2011 at 21:31.
Thanks, I was hoping I wasn't COMPLETELY out in left field there Actually, not to threadjack but a quick question, do you always let your opponent know what you have on the table first thing? Or do you wait until they get into combat?
I tell Mark, Command options, and mundane equipment, but not what magic equipment a unit or character has. As far as I know that is pretty standard practice, although I have had a couple full disclosure games. But I prefer the hidden gear
2 - no saves, so scroll up and pray to the gods for deliverance. find the caster with this spell and haul ass to him ASAP so he can't cast it into combat
3 - heh heh, funny you would follow dread of a spell and then ask this question afterwords.
a few pointers on your list:
I just hate wulfrick. He's like a staple in noobie armies, everyone thinks his ability is so good until he doesn't bother showing up for a game. then they learn. Never used him myself, and never plan too.
Your army is all meat and potatoes. I think the lack of variety will work against you. slaves are just stupid cheap and will tarpit you while the nasty stuff gets on your flank, then it's GG. If this is all that is availible and you don't want to proxy a ton of stuff . . .. . well stratagy will only take you so far with such limited range of troops
I agree about the monodimensionality of the list...I was worried enough about that in my own planned list (where I was to have one block of warriors and two hordes of marauders) that I changed things up to have three very different melee blocks...to wit, 1x warriors, 1x GW marauders, and 1x trolls. No list alive can hope to have an answer to all three threats, and at the same time, every list is bound to checkmate one of my blocks... with enough 30 point hound token units, I get to see his deployment first, and array myself advantageously, so the advantage is mine.
IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010
Of course Wulfrick has his uses, what special character doesn't? They are fun to bring out on occasion, but if you want to build a regular army around their use, well I'm going to call that in poor taste. you don't learn the necessaries of our army by using special rules, only how to win with that particular character. Regular use of special characters can be frustrating to opponents and goes against the spirit of the game. So I will always renounce their use for a first army,
*fails restraint test on Wulfrick ripping*
And as far as his purpose of killing characters. . . . well, thats what he does. He is known for it, and it's an obvious play. How hard is it to avoid a M4 character in a unit? Very easy, Especially for a race known for their cowardice. With a movement of 6, these guys can just book it out of their unit before wulfrick gets within charge range. failing that there is the skitter leap, which completely takes him out of Wulfrick's way. Sure, he may now be out on his own, or somewhere he isn't as safe and you can use more conventional things to off him, but is that worth the high cost of this non-bsb non-caster hero slot? There are plenty of more conventional, less obvious ways to deal with this guy if you feel he needs special attention. But with a puppet on the table most opponents will think twice before risking their own doom in exchange for yours.
*succeeds in rallying, reforms to return to Original topic*
See, besides the curse-in-disguise-of-a-blessing that is seafang, Wulfrick is amazingly singular in purpose and use. An obvious tactic is one that can be adapted too more easily, where as there are endless possible methods for dealing with a dangerous mage without special rules, much harder to predict and thus defend against. I fully believe it is better to explore these options first, and save Wulfrick (or any other special character) for when you need to mix things up a bit or are feeling silly.
Same goes for festus, tho he is strategically far superior to Wulfrick, that is a story for another thread
I'm not about to go wagging the baby's arm about here, but I will say that many of us who are helping the newbies with their lists are speaking with as much experience as you are, with many of us having as many or more years of experience. Myself, I have 12 years, with a collection of about half the armies in the game under my belt and about half that time spent playing WoC. I wouldn't say that Wulfrik is a noob-tactic.
Firstly, he does not have to deploy on Seafang! I initially ran him on Fang all the time, and yes, like you said, having the drunkard pull a 4-turn kegger on the boat is pretty poor. On average though, you'll see him between turn 2 and 3, which is plenty of time. Lately however I've been playing a bit more coy with Wulfy&Co. I run 25-29 Marauders with him, MoS for cheap anti-panic. If I deploy Wulfrik on the line, I pop him into a Warrior unit which will certainly be seeing combat with whatever big-bad my enemy has to offer. I then mark out their biggest, baddest character as Wulfrik's target, and let them know. This guarantees two things - that their scariest CC character will either avoid my scariest CC unit, or he's going to be face-to-face with Wulfrik. So what about the MoS marauders? I give them Festus, who would have usually gone into my Warriors unit. Yes, I know, you probably have a reason to hate Festus too, but whatever, nobody can resist a unit-wide 5+ Regen and Poison, and yes, I do remember that he doesn't pursue as far, and no, I don't waste points pairing him with a perfumed character.
Secondly, I take Wulfrik because I play a lot of tournaments where I'm dealing with jagoffs like Teclis in a 100-man archer unit, Dwarf Gunlines, Skaven Gunlines, Empire Gunlines, and ambushing Beastmen. Wulfrik gives me a way to deal with all of these. For 305pts I can pick up my character and 24 angry naked northmen to keep my enemy on his toes. Most foes hear that I'm taking Wulfy and instantly plan for him to come in behind them, deploying all the way against their back line. Awesome, that makes it easier for me to break them off the table, Hellcannon-panic them off the table, and unless they're using a cannon or maybe longbow, I'm out of range of their shooting if they get the first turn. When Wulfrik does show, they are faced with the decision of turning around to deal with him - drawing fire off my advancing lines and presenting their butts to my rapacious northmen - or presenting their butts to my rapacious northmen. Even if I come in on the flank it's scary for my enemy. I can suicide Wulfrik out on his own and force a foe to accept his challenge- that alone can tarpit an enemy unit for at least a turn or two depending on who Wulfy decides to mix-it-up with and how many characters he can kill (record btw: Teclis, BSB, PG Champion = 4 turns, 8 combat phases) while the rest of his merry lads run off to tie up shooters, hunt cannons, or just grab a +2 rear-charge.
The end of my little rant is that Wulfrik costs less than 200pts, in an army where our only other anti-character option is either Scyla (who is less effective) or an equally or even more expensive Chaos Lord or Exalted. Ditto Festus. For what each of them do, it's a steal. Yes, you could argue that spending those points on some ridiculous, off the wall, crazily unique scheme will win you a game, but ultimately you're playing a 1-trick pony. Once they figure out how to deal with your Sorcerer, you're in the same boat as us SpecChar guys, the difference is that when it comes to WoC, our other options cost as much or more than these two characters. Breaking anyone who's actually used Wulfrik in a game is going to be difficult.
Now, back on topic:
1. Flaming Halbs can deal with the Hellpit, but they're going to take some casualties and probably be held up all game. You have a choice of where you want to put Festus. You can go for the most deadly option of adding him to the Flaming unit so that you get auto-wounds on all 6's, or you could add him to the Banner of Rage unit, giving you 2 units who are potentially worrisome to the HPA. Personally, if you want to kill the Pit most easily, I'd actually go for AddHW, MoK, Flaming warriors with Festus. The extra attacks mean more 6's, means more anti-regen hits. But that only works against the Hell Pit, and is a pretty poor unit otherwise. You're current list will do alright against the Pit, you can use magic to help out.
2. Feedback Scroll, Puppet, Black Tongue. Basically, take an item that makes it threatening for him to cast them spell. Usually they throw lots of dice at it, so if it doesn't go IF, you can Feedback him and probably take down the caster. If he goes IF, you can hit him with the Puppet to hopefully do a bit of return damage to him. If he fails to cast it, the Tongue could turn it to a miscast and you could even combo it with the Puppet. Ultimately though, he's going to cast it, and it's going to hurt. A dispel scroll is nice, personally I'd go for a DD and Puppet, so that if one of them doesn't work, the other will pick up the slack.
3. Already explained quite well by Papa_Wheely.
This looks suspiciously like a list which I used to take second in a tournament a while back (first place went to another WoC player who I never got to face thanks to Swiss formatting) but with all of the changes that I said I'd make to the wargear layout. In fact, you actually gain 2 marauders, 2 hound units, and about 8 extra warriors at the price of a unit of Chaos Knights which did sod-all for me. Not a bad list at all. If I could suggest a few changes:
- Drop 3 marauders from your unit, that gives you enough to take MoS or add it to the 15pts you have left and grab MoK. It will bring the unit to 29, plus Wulfric for an even horde of 30. Deploy 10 wide if you come in from Seafang, and 6x5 for anything else. You want MoS/MoK for the ItP when you arrive, as you could well soak up enough shooting to force a Panic check.
- I'd even go so far as to drop those MoT Warriors to 17 as well. They have enough bodies to cross the field, especially with the ward against Shooting, and their Parry will keep them in combat for a good while. A lot of people tell you that you need to break steadfast, and will gun for 4 ranks of Warriors. I've never bought into that mentality - steadfast is something we just have to deal with as Warriors. The benefit to Tzeentchians is that they can outlast an enemy and grind down those big steadfast blocks. Sort of an anti-tarpit, they can go against that big beafy unit that the enemy hopes will grind down your MoKkers. This doesn't mean you should toss them into 200 Slaves, that's a genuine tarpit which you will never regain points from, but throwing them into a big block of Plague Monks could be a good idea.
- I'm not a fan of Warhounds, pretty much the same way that TalismanicTattoo isn't a fan of Wulfrik - people say that they're good, and that you need them, but they don't fit my playstyle and I actually think that most styles which call for Hound units have actually been phased out by 8th edition. You really want to sink 60pts into 2 free drops to determine enemy deployment? Guess what, especially skaven, they're just going to drop 2 mook-blocks and then still outnumber you enough to save their best drops for after your deployment. And the icing on the cake (for them anyways) is that they're going to snap up those 60pts with ease. You only need a 100pt margin to declare a victory...
I don't think that your list is Meat-and-potatoes at all.
I see what Marnepup's saying about running a versatile, multi-threat list, but seriously, the enemy will find ways to cope with each threat. Take my list against his for example (I hate doing this, because who knows how the game would go, from deployment to maneuver) - if I were facing off against him, I'd send my MoT Warriors after his Marauders, because they can outgrind his grinders, my BoF Halbs against his trolls to cancel out their Regen and tear apart their T4, and then send my third block of Warriors into his Warriors, and play the Buff/Debuff game with Shadows. I've got a block of Knights, a Hellcannon, and Wulfrik&Co somewhere in support (although I don't know what else Marne might have in his list). There's a list just like yours - 3 blocks of Warriors and some backup - which can deal with a "multi-threat" list through simple weapon, mark, and banner selection.
Now, if Marne was running all Trolls, or all Marauders, or all Warriors, he would have probably overloaded my capabilities to deal with that many identical threats. That's why I love running tons of Warriors - not only are they some of the most cost effective core in the game, but when the enemy is staring down 3-4 units of these butchers, he realizes that 1 unit of Black Orcs just isn't going to cut it. It's called Threat-Overload, and it works.
Ultimately, Warhammer is a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. There are some match-ups where you're almost guaranteed to prevail. And then there are others where you have to pray for good luck and sound generalship to carry the day. If you want an equal chance against every single opponent, play Checkers. Don't tailor a list to defeat a specific foe. What if your Skaven friend trades his army for Ogres at the last second before the game? Then where would you be?