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Well? Do we?
I'm considering a list that uses a Chaos Lord, a Battle Standard Bearer and Throgg for maximum high-leadership rerolls.
I don't know how important it is for me to have magic. I figure that as most people are casting two spells per turn on average, I can probably dispel one of those regardless of having a caster and if I'm focused entirely on combat, I should be well-placed to destroy stuff by maybe turn three.
What are other people's thoughts? Why does everyone take the ubiquitous Level 4 Sorcerer Lord? Why the Level 2 back-up? It seems to me that when I start trying to put together a list, I'm almost pre-limiting myself to those two plus a Battle Standard Bearer. Surely there are other viable options?
Yes, yes we do. All the CC prowess we have isn't worth much if we can't stymie incoming spells, as augments and hexes are a hallmark of successful CC armies because of their ability to swing combats. In the case of Trolls, they also won't last long if you're letting them get hammered by "Initiative test or die" spells or fire, and not taking magic leaves that door wide, wide open. I think it's suicide for WoC to go without magic in a competitive setting.
Ok, good. Do you think we need 6 levels of magic? Or do you think either 2 or 4 would suffice? Do you think that not taking Tzeentch is a valid option, given the buff it gives to defence and to both casting and dispelling?
I hate the idea of taking a Level 4 caster without giving him Mark of Tzeentch, since I feel I'm denying myself such a useful bonus to my magic. At the same time, I really like the Lore of Shadow, which seems to be rather useful for a combat-oriented army. That causes me problems when I'm trying to set up my magic.
So far as a magic-using army list goes, I'm thinking about either: a Level 4 with Lore of Tzeentch plus a Book of Secrets Exalted Hero with Mark of Tzeentch, Spell Familiar and Lore of Shadow; OR a Level 4 with Lore of Shadow plus a Level 2 with Third Eye of Tzeentch and Lore of Tzeentch.
What are your thoughts on those combinations? How would you justify taking a Level 4 and not giving him the additional +1 to cast, given the number of spells he's got to cast in a turn?
At least 4, and they should be a main rulebook Lore. The spells from the Mark Lores aren't all that good, frankly, not even Tzeentch. I was in your situation before, but I've come to the conclusion that it just doesn't bring enough to the table in terms of the nuts and bolts. Bonuses to cast only really matter if you have something worth casting.
Last edited by rothgar13; December 18th, 2011 at 21:50.
I have two lines of thought on the matter -
Firstly, as Rothgar pointed out, you probably want about 4 levels of magic. My typical list runs with 6, plus a BSB with the Book and MoT. The only reason that I run 6 is because I often include Festus, but that's more for his unit buffs than for his actual casting. I typically dispel with my L4, and I don't channel often. If you're going for a purely defensive build, a L4 with either the Scroll or the Puppet would work. You may even consider Tzeentch just to try throwing a 6-die Pandemonium each turn, because it forces your opponent to burn dice in his phase to stop it.
Secondly, dropping a caster to pick up a fighter is a bad idea. Our fighty characters aren't that great. Yeah, they look amazing on paper, but they're so expensive, and that pricing comes from the fact that they're just too good at what they do. I mean, when are you ever going to need the WS8 and Ini7 on a Chaos Lord? The only things with better than I6 are usually rocking ASF anyways, and WS8 is just uncalled for, because again, most Lords cap out at WS6-7. We're paying for tons of extra overkill stats. Furthermore, our characters get yanked out by Champions in combat, because we have to challenge and we can't decline. So all that super cool killing power that we pump into them, gets wasted on some poor mook champion. Our unis shave through people like a knife through butter - all they need to do is get into combat intact. If we decide to pump them with Shadows or whatever lore we want, that just makes them better and lets us add some options for dealing with opponents who have unexpected combat stats.
Do we not still love Pandaemonium, Treason of Tzeentch and Infernal Gateway? Is Flickering Fire of Tzeentch no longer a handy direct damage spell?
Moving away from Tzeentch, someone on another forum suggested using Lore of Slaanesh in combination with Lore of Death, Hellcannons and the Doom Totem (try passing your leadership tests with a -5 modifier, punk!). How would you feel about that? The specific combination that he suggested was:Sorcerer Lord
- Level 4
- Lore of Death
- Level 2
- Lore of Slaanesh
- Level 2
- Lore of Slaanesh
- Level 2
- Lore of Slaanesh
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Doom Totem
At its most basic, that combination leaves just over 1,500 points for a 3,000 point army.
(I realise we've now moved right away from "should we take magic?" and into random-combination-hammer. Sorry for the random. I'm genuinely stuck trying to work out the best option for combinations for my army. )
That's a straight-up gimmick army that dies an ugly death to anything Immune to Psychology, or to anyone smart enough to dispel Doom and Darkness (and gods help you if you don't roll that spell, though that is admittedly less likely). I wouldn't go that route.
And the only spell that I like in the Lore of Tzeentch that I can't find something nicer in another Lore is Pandaemonium - anything else can be replicated or improved upon by another Lore of magic. The debate between Death, Heavens, and Shadows is a very interesting one, though, and I'm not sure there's a clear winner. You should try all 3 of them out and see which works the best for you. I know I like Shadows, though, especially with Warriors of Tzeentch.
Last edited by rothgar13; December 18th, 2011 at 22:11.
Are we confident enough in our Sorcerer Lords that we'd put them into combat? I'm trying to work out where to put my Lore of Shadow Sorcerer Lord and I'm wondering about mounting him on a Chaos Steed and putting him in a unit of Chaos Knights who are tasked with getting flank charges.
I put them with my BSB, and kit him out to fight. Keeps him safe enough.
I'm confused. You put who with your Battle Standard Bearer and kit who out to fight?