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  1. #1
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Hellcannon questions!

    Can a hell cannon pivot and shoot?

    What happens if the crew dies? It tests to rampage like normal on its on LD or can it use the generals? Can the BSB cause a re roll?

    Is the monster reaction table in the BRB ever consulted?

    Thanks in advance!

    AshBorn

    **One more question not related to the hellcannon but I might as well save thread space - Does the Tzeentch Disc confer a +1 armor save to its rider?

    Last edited by AshBorn; February 8th, 2012 at 22:46.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Papa_Wheely's Avatar
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    Yes, the Disk is a mount and so gives a bonus to the rider's armor.

    As for the Hell Cannon, you are treading on some uncertain ground. Let me help where I can.

    It is not a Warmachine, and so I don't think it can pivot in the shooting phase, but as a Single Model Unit, it can freely pivot even as it moves in the movement Phase. I have played it similar to 40k that pivoting doesn't count for the purposes of shooting. Can anyone verify this?

    The BSB allows for any model/unit to re-roll any leadership test, so yes, it allows you to re-roll rampage, the test to see if it has to roll on Monster Reaction, etc. The same goes for the General and his Inspiring Presence, except where the rule specifically states unmodified leadership.

    And yes, if the Dwarf Crew is killed, you do test for Monster Reaction, FAQ pg 2.

    Where things get uncertain is how the Monster Reaction table interacts with the Hell Cannon's own Rampage rule. For example, if I roll up the Stupidity result (and I have) which takes precedent, Stupidity or Rampage? They are both described as being at the Start of Turn. Does this mean I take both, and can then move 4D6 inches? And then in what direction (directly forward or towards the nearest enemy)? Or how about the middle result where it sits still and shoots willy-nilly? Does this mean it no longer has to test for Rampage and automatically can shoot? Or if it fails Rampage it simply doesn't move? Or does Rampage override this?

    The way I have played it is that the Monster Reaction table completely overrides and replaces the Rampage rule, thereby eliminating trying to figure how different results interact with Rampage. But I have asked several GW employees, and even had one of them ask one of the Developers (I can't recall if it was Phil Kelly or Gav Thorpe). Still no good answer on this. Where is my FAQ for this, GW?!
    Last edited by Papa_Wheely; February 8th, 2012 at 23:27.

  4. #3
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    I see okay. So when do I take the reaction test? At the start of my turn? Right when the crew die? The monster reaction stuff in the BRB is all about ridden monsters n such...

    Just started using a hellcannon... first shot I rolled a HIT on one dice, and a misfire on the other. So naturally I misfired and the cannon ate its crew.

    Last question ( I think lol ).. if I have to rampage towards the closest enemy, and that enemy is behind me, do I turn immediately around and charge? Or do I just charge the closest model in my front arc?

    Thank you for all your help!

  5. #4
    Senior Member Papa_Wheely's Avatar
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    Ridden Monsters are somewhat more common than Monster and Handlers, and so I think that is why the rules are more clearly for them. Nonetheless, the use the same rules for Monster Reaction. And the test is made immediately, if I am not mistaken. I am at work and don't have my rulebook, so I can't be 100% positive, but I think that is the case. And yes, Random Movement can go in any direction, so a Hell Cannon can, and indeed can be obligated to, charge an enemy in its rear. The same is true for Spawn. When moving a single model with Random Movement, you simply pivot the model (as a single model unit it can do so freely) and then move it the distance rolled in a straight line. This is only a charge as far as Impact Hits (if any) and Combat Res are concerned. It does not follow the normal rules for Charges in that the target must be in its front arc, and nor can the enemy declare a Charge Reaction. No flee, no stand and shoot... It is a really powerful ability.

    Because of that though, be really careful if you see a Hell Pit Abomination on the table, as well as anything else with Random Movement. They can really screw over any plans of yours that involve flanking.

  6. #5
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Ok I think I got everything down regarding the cannon except for one more thing to clarify.. I only do the reaction ONCE when the crew dies, but not every subsequent turn right? Just the only roll then I'm done.

    **One more thing to clarify on the table..

    The GRRRR - It will shoot its stone thrower shot at close enemies, correct?

    For RAAARGH! - It now has hatred and frenzy and will always charge. If I have to rampage, and I roll lets say 10 inches, I am now in eligible range to charge, do I then charge as well? Or how exactly does this one work in priority to each other....
    Last edited by AshBorn; February 9th, 2012 at 00:52.

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    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Without cracking my book . . . . .

    You cannot pivot and shoot. Pivoting counts as movement and the hellcannon is move or shoot. (FAQ)

    When all the crew die you take the monster reaction immediately.
    As far as how the tests are taken I'm pretty sure the rulebook is very clear . . . .. . . *curses himself and cracks it open* ijustdonthavetimeforthishit . .. . . . Yes, incredably clear. The rules for monster w/ handler say you test exactly the same as a riden monster would . . . . .. so. . . .. . exact same would be. . . as soon as the rider (handlers) dies. (confirmed)
    You can find the rules for monster and handlers in the special rules section, same place as frenzy, swift-stride, hatred, and all that fun stuff. Judging from these questions you need to go read this section in detail, I'm not hearing questions about the crew saves so just wanna be sure you know about them.

    when he fails and rolls stupid, I 4+ which one tests first on my turn. First failure negates the need to test on the other. There is no official rule and you have to do what is most fair for your opponent. I believe in the rulebook somewhere it says that when things happen simutainiously, it is the player's whos turn it is that decideds the order. even if true i still err on the side of being fair with my opponent.
    The other results arn't as hard to reason around. Read the fluff of the hellcannon and see if it is likely he would stand above the bodies of the fallen crew in a protective stance. . . . . . ha! the rampage test is because the beast inside the machine cannot stand to be under the control of mortals, so I still test for rampage but *if* i pass i follow the rest of the rules for that result.
    The final result is very strait forward.

    It should be noted that this is just all retarded. We already have our own problems and the Hellcannon is not a typical monster in any terms (fluff or mechanics). It shouldn't be subject to the table, but in the FAQ they said it was. . . . . too bad they didn't explain HOW very well (at all)

    The rules for rampage are very clear, 3d6 towards the closest enemy model, not closest enemy model it can see. It is not a charge but a compulsary move/random movement (look up those special rules in the rule book). It will pivot to face the target, and move into combat, counting as a charge with no time for charge reactions

    The Disc of Tzeench counts as a warbeast or something. Whatever it is, there is a ruling on it that when that troop type is a mount for a character it counts as calvary. So it does grant the +1 armour that any mount will grant, but note it is not barded so +1 is all it gives.

  8. #7
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBorn View Post
    Ok I think I got everything down regarding the cannon except for one more thing to clarify.. I only do the reaction ONCE when the crew dies, but not every subsequent turn right? Just the only roll then I'm done.

    Correct. If you pass then you can forget all this junk cause you only ever test once.
    **One more thing to clarify on the table..

    The GRRRR - It will shoot its stone thrower shot at close enemies, correct?

    Probably not. In the movement phase it will turn to face the closest enemy. That counts as moving, the HC cannot move and shoot. If it is already facing the closest enemy. . . . .

    For RAAARGH! - It now has hatred and frenzy and will always charge. If I have to rampage, and I roll lets say 10 inches, I am now in eligible range to charge, do I then charge as well? Or how exactly does this one work in priority to each other....
    Dream on!!! You only get to move once. If you fail rampage he makes a compulsory movement. Read up on those things, they don't declare charges, move after chargers but before remaining moves.

    I know the monster reaction stuff is pretty hard to get, but the rest of this information is readily available in your BRB, WoC army book, and the downloadable PDF FAQ's for the army book and rulebook. I suggest you look this information up yourself, and I'm not just saying that to be a nasty, lazy prick. I consider myself a seasoned player at this point and I am still constantly looking up and contesting rules. Knowing this stuff is so essential to improving your game (need to know the rules in order to understand what to expect), but developing habits and a familiarity with where the different rules can be found, how to figure out where they are and which ones to look up, will help your overall gaming experience, especially down the road at tournaments. In a weak scenario, you and your opponent are both unfamiliar with some strange rules and spend too much time looking up rules and can't finish your game on time. a harder scenario is facing a greasy opponent who will take advantage of your lack of experience and knowledgeably. They will bully their way thru you and not only will you lose spectacularly, but you will feel dirty afterwords and it can put a bad taint on an otherwise awesome time. My rudeness is not ill-inteded; it's tough love =P

  9. #8
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talismanictattoo View Post
    Dream on!!! You only get to move once. If you fail rampage he makes a compulsory movement. Read up on those things, they don't declare charges, move after chargers but before remaining moves.

    I know the monster reaction stuff is pretty hard to get, but the rest of this information is readily available in your BRB, WoC army book, and the downloadable PDF FAQ's for the army book and rulebook. I suggest you look this information up yourself, and I'm not just saying that to be a nasty, lazy prick. I consider myself a seasoned player at this point and I am still constantly looking up and contesting rules. Knowing this stuff is so essential to improving your game (need to know the rules in order to understand what to expect), but developing habits and a familiarity with where the different rules can be found, how to figure out where they are and which ones to look up, will help your overall gaming experience, especially down the road at tournaments. In a weak scenario, you and your opponent are both unfamiliar with some strange rules and spend too much time looking up rules and can't finish your game on time. a harder scenario is facing a greasy opponent who will take advantage of your lack of experience and knowledgeably. They will bully their way thru you and not only will you lose spectacularly, but you will feel dirty afterwords and it can put a bad taint on an otherwise awesome time. My rudeness is not ill-inteded; it's tough love =P
    The information is readily available but the questions I am asking are when they are ambiguous. And the FAQ I had was reading is apparently out of date (2009). Which said nothing about the reaction test. I am familiar with all the special rules, however when the monster reaction says its only for ridden monsters, and the hellcannon is not that, but all the terminology in the book of ridden monsters applies to when it is in combat and the dwarf crew often die out of combat so again, ambiguity.

    BRB - "If the rider is slaini, the monster must immediately take a monster reaction test: take a leadership test on the mosnter's own LD. If the test is passed, the mosnter FIGHTS on as normal. If the test is failed, roll a D6 and consult the reaction table." This paragraph is immediately following where it talks about the rider dying in combat. I would normally think it would take the test if the crew died out of combat, but the BRB does not say that concretely.

    As far as the double movement, I dont see anywhere where it says that it would not do a rampage and then charge. On the rampage text for my hellcannon, it says it does that rampage at the beginning of the turn, which would be before any charging etc. It only says it counts as charging if it is sufficient to hit an enemy.. where it is not, the opposite would apply which would mean it doesn't count as charging, and since it was prior to the charge phase, it is safe to assume that the RAAARGH would make it charge if it is now eligible.

    So no, reading the information does not clarify everything which is why I came here.

    All of my questions save the disc question have been about a hellcannon which everyone finds confusing and there is no concrete rules for some things it seems.... The disc question, it was a buddy of mine who told me I didn't receive the bonus on a disc, regardless of what I showed him in the BRB.

    Not to be extremely defensive, but my questions are pulled from reading the information, not pulled from me NOT reading the info.

  10. #9
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Papa - "It is not a Warmachine, and so I don't think it can pivot in the shooting phase, but as a Single Model Unit, it can freely pivot even as it moves in the movement Phase. I have played it similar to 40k that pivoting doesn't count for the purposes of shooting. Can anyone verify this?"

    and

    Talisman - "Probably not. In the movement phase it will turn to face the closest enemy. That counts as moving, the HC cannot move and shoot. If it is already facing the closest enemy. . . . ."

    Again ambiguity... not from the BRB this time...

    **Btw, I'm not restating all this because I feel you are wrong. I'm restating it to show you why someone might go to a third party for clarification DESPITE having read the BRB, FAQ, and WoC army codex.
    Last edited by AshBorn; February 9th, 2012 at 02:03.

  11. #10
    Senior Member talismanictattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBorn View Post
    The information is readily available but the questions I am asking are when they are ambiguous. And the FAQ I had was reading is apparently out of date (2009) http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1780264a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_V1_4.pdf. Which said nothing about the reaction test. I am familiar with all the special rules, however when the monster reaction says its only for ridden monsters (pg 73 paragraph 1), and the hellcannon is not that, but all the terminology in the book of ridden monsters applies to when it is in combat and the dwarf crew often die out of combat so again, ambiguity.see the later point)

    BRB - "If the rider is slaini, the monster must immediately take a monster reaction test: take a leadership test on the mosnter's own LD. If the test is passed, the mosnter FIGHTS on as normal. If the test is failed, roll a D6 and consult the reaction table." This paragraph is immediately following where it talks about the rider dying in combat no, it follows how excess wounds work, which follows close combat. these are seperate sections as indicated by the bold headers at the start. Close combat is not implied. I would normally think it would take the test if the crew died out of combat, but the BRB does not say that concretely. I think both these points are quite clear in the book if you do not mistake FIGHTING for CLOSE COMBAT. I can see how you are getting confused and it is because you are reading too much into it. Fighting is not a spesific term from the rulebook. in both cases it is being used to summarize playing the model under your own control as you normally would. It is weak, but i think they just couldn't figure out another word to use. Close Combat, on the other hand, is a spesific phase and part of the game, and is not mentioned in either entry. While they have the same meaning in our language, they are not interchangeable in the rules-language.

    As far as the double movement, I dont see anywhere where it says that it would not do a rampage and then charge. On the rampage text for my hellcannon, it says it does that rampage at the beginning of the turn, which would be before any charging etc. It also says it makes a compulsary movement. read the rules for compulsary movement on pg 24 of brbIt only says it counts as charging if it is sufficient to hit an enemy.. where it is not, the opposite would apply which would mean it doesn't count as charging, and since it was prior to the charge phase, it is safe to assume that the RAAARGH would make it charge if it is now eligible. also note that there is an updated description of this in the FaQ, the wording meshes better with the 8th edition rules.

    So no, reading the information does not clarify everything which is why I came here.
    If we are still civil i think this was actually very helpful, as I think we've figured out the source of your confusion, being a 3 year old faq and terminology confusion.

    All of my questions save the disc question have been about a hellcannon which everyone finds confusing and there is no concrete rules for some things it seems.... The disc question, it was a buddy of mine who told me I didn't receive the bonus on a disc, regardless of what I showed him in the BRB.
    Believe me, I've been there brother. It took me a long time to look all this stuff up and make all the connections, but I'm no longer confused by any aspect of the hellcannon.

    Not to be extremely defensive, but my questions are pulled from reading the information, not pulled from me NOT reading the info.
    i think we are 1 and 1 here. No, not extremely defensive but defensive none-the-less, which we see in regards to compulsory movement. Everyone is wrong from time to time, even the guys at the stores or the guys that win all the tourneys. Even the smartasses on the internet who scrutinize our every word. FOR EXAMPLE: I don't see anywhere in the updated FaQ about pivoting and hellcannons, so now I'm wondering where the hell I read that, if I even did. I mean what i said still makes sense; pivoting is movement and it cannot move and shoot. It fires like a stonethrower but does not move like one. However I was under the impression that it was explicitly stated in the FaQ, or somewhere official, and now seeing as it isn't I can't consider myself right anymore =/

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