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Hey guys I have a quick question about our fast cav. I am a big fan of movement manipulation and toying with people. Getting back into games I am liking using puppies for some annoying misdirecting and whatnot and I am curious why I don't see people running simple MoS Marauder Horsemen for bait and flee type of maneuvers. I run a fairly slow foot slogger list because I love the foot models and usually have one week flank. Why don't I see more horsemen being used in 5 man units in the army list section? Do we prefer to just bring big hitters rather than bring cute bait units? Are thrown weapon marauders out of style?
I think that m.horsemen are avoided largely because they just aren't cost effective. They aren't necessarily bad, but there are better things you can do with the points. They can't tackle big things head on so they're limited to 1) redirecting 2) supporting a unit already in combat with a flank charge and 3) warmachine hunting. Now let's evaluate that...
1) why pay out the nose for units who can fight in combat only to use them to run? You could argue that this makes them more versatile in that they can still fight, but I'd still rather just pay for a unit of puppies to do the job.
2) if a unit is going to be flank support, generally it's going to stick close to it's "parent unit" and wait for them to get into combat before doing anything. M.horsemen are more expensive than marauders because you're paying for their mobility. If they're sitting waiting to flank, you just paid for what is essentially a marauder upgrade that you didn't use. It seems to me that it's more cost effective to just buy a unit of footsloggers for the same price that has more wounds and can pump out more attacks. The only time that I can think of where this point is moot is if the parent unit is some knights or trolls.
3) I've never had an instance where I used puppies to hunt war machines, had them fail, then think to myself "aww crap I should have sprung the extra points for marauders" plain and simple.
The only thing really unique to these guys compared to the rest of our army is the vanguard move. Imo it isn't of enough interest to take them over other things, which in all honesty is disappointing to me. I have 15 of these guys who have been collecting dust since the release of 8th ed. This is all of course my two cents and largely open to debate. That's just how I feel about them.
Last edited by Immortal Scrub; May 25th, 2012 at 10:17.
I think Immortal Scrub makes the points well. The rest of the army can't keep up with the horsemen, so the idea that they will crash down on the flank after combat has begun means they're waiting around. Now it's possible you can bait while you wait but I think the main question is .... why?
You usually bait to avoid CC but that's the catch, WoC don't want to avoid CC. It's the only phase where we can dominate (aside from a great winds roll).
There's always the Marauder Horsemen cruise missile though, I think everyone approves of that unit.
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because the way that movement and charging works now the baiting units often have to die pretty quick. You can't really "bait" something unless you are really close, and at that point it's your 2d6 flee vs their 2d6+M charge, which could backfire on you if you are trying to slow them down and instead have them catch u 10" away. Otherwise you are trying to speed-bump them by getting right in their face at an angle that makes the overrun a bad move, forcing them to charge the 1" and reform when they win. Either way, they are toast and for this reason alone the puppies are better than marauders.
Really horesemen do not do the job of baiting/distracting any better than puppies, their movement and reforms just grant them a wider area where they can do this effectivly. but for 2 units of horesemen you get 3 units of puppies so the coverage is actually worse than what the puppies offer. The other point is that in the case you do flee and get away the horsemen have a much better chance of rallying, but typically you don't even want that as at that point if they rally they will be in the way of your charging units.
So TalismanicTattoo and Blackheart, would you say that in the current scheme of things unless you really need them for fluff reasons - or creating the Khorne cruise missile, the horsemen are pretty much as Odor says, sitting around on the shelf this edition?
Aww... Talisman shed the light that I was lacking. So when racing my fast cav run 3d6 (minus the lowest) and pursuing dwarfs chase at a superior 2d6 plus 3. I guess GW really doesn't like bait and flee because these rules are massively silly.
Also you can't really rely on bait and flee too much =/ Any good opponent will know what you're trying to do. That's why most people just speed bump with puppies. Ya they know what you're doing, but short of maneuvering around the unit you can't avoid it, and even then the speed bump served it's purpose.