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Y'know.. I've been thinking about this lately, and it's a hard, hard sell. Been trying to make an anti-Brets list for 1200 pts, quite unsucessfully..
They have better knights (range, lance formation, ward save), ranged attacks, tons of free junk, and pegasus knights.
We have better infantry (yippie).. and.. access to special lores.
I would say not to be so glum. It is possible to create a list that can defeat them.
As you've already said, you have better infantry. Use that to you advantage. A unit of 12 Khorne warriors with additional hand weapons on the charge will get 13 attacks at st 4. These will hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+!! That is an average of 6 wounds!! That means that at least 2 are going to get through the armour, and probably that means only one knight striking back!! That would mean you would win combat.
As you've probably worked out by now, the best way to beat Brettonians is to charge them!!!
Marauders with Flails, Marauder Horsemen to march block, Tzeench/death magic, there are plenty of ways to kill them!!
Why not try making a list, and we will try and help
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I agree with you red, defeating Bretonnians (especially in smaller games), is a nightmare.
Better infantry means jack all when they get charged by a lance of 9+ Knights and have the front rank slaughtered before they get to fight back, and even chaos troops are hard pressed to stand after losing so many that quickly. And what about the players who can't or don't want to use Chosen Khorne warriors? What do they do?
Well I've fought Bretonnians before, and I've beaten them. The secret? It all comes down to out-maneuvering them. A Bretonnian lance tends to charge whatever is in front of it. If you can use a unit as bait while moving fast, hard-hitting units (like knights, minotaurs, shaggoths) round the sides, you might be able to catch the knights in the flank after they mince the bait unit.
Other tactics include marching warhounds right up to the front of a lance, and then stopping there. Madness? Nope, warhounds are dirt cheap, so you can park a 5-strong unit in front a a big lance, they then either have the choice of charging the dogs or they have to waste time moving around them (without their march move too).
Of course, they'll probably choose to charge the warhounds, what then? Well, you'll have a unit of knights or minotaurs sitting about 12-15" away, just off to the side of the warhounds, when the Bretonnians charge, flee the warhounds. Assuming you get a decent flee distance, the warhounds should have led the Bretonnians right up to your waiting heavy unit(s). In your turn you can then charge in with your heavies (preferably in the flank. Because Bretonnian armour is notoriously hard to cut through, you'll need all the combat res you can get!) and give them a kicking.
There are also a few things that can make killing Bretonnian knights a little bit easier. Great weapons are the obvious choice, Be careful who you give them to though, you don't want your Chaos Hero or Lord striking last against a Bretonnian Lord when he challenges you. Minotaurs and Shaggoths benefit well from great weapons, mainly because they are fast enough to get the charge on the Bretonnians, and without them, they won't do enough damage to win.
Beast herds are also useful against knights since knights don't like woods. Move a herd into a nearby wood and you'll take away march moves and threaten them with flank and rear charges.
There is an invaluable magic weapon from the Beasts book called The Great Fang. No armour saves are allowed against it, perfect for chopping up 1+ armour save knights! The Drain Life spell from the Death lore is also good, affecting all enemy units within 12" of the sorcerer and allowing no armour saves. Brilliant!
Finally, the thing to remember about Bretonnians is they don't like it if they get charged. Hit a Bretonnian lance in the flank with some serious damage-dealers, and with a bit of luck (as always) the unit will crumple faster than an empty can under a boot.
Hope all that gives you some food for thought about dealing with those poncy Bretonnian do-gooders. :cool:
Last edited by Tzeentch Lord; July 13th, 2005 at 17:45.
"Peace, through superior firepower."
Yeah, getting the charge on Brets pretty much assures victory when they don't get their +S2 from charging. But with their 16" charge, it's really hard to get the charge, especially when they don't take the bait (either from horsemen or dogs). And with the set up, it's usually pretty obvious to the other player that you plan to counter-charge.
Ginger, I did make a list, but not sure whether it will work, cuz I never played a list that's as 'eggs in one basket as this one'.. anyways, I will link it: list.
The only way ive found to get an effective charge off against Brets (I play them and chaos so i know all about chaos' gripes) is to stick a massive block of infantry in front of them. Sure, they may kill 6 Marauders on the charge, but youll still probably have +4 combat res to start, maybe a kill, then youve got a character in it, so they wont run. Bang, next turn they have a unit of chosen warriors on their flank.
That's all well and good Takaetun, but remember that the average Bretonnian lance has at least one rank, usually two (don't forget their ranks only need to be 3 or more models wide to claim a rank), they always have a banner, a unit of 9 knights will have a unit strength of 18 (which may be enough to outnumber most people's 16+ marauder units even before casualties) and many Bretonnian units include a character (since they can have one more character than anyone else at any given army points value).
Taking all that into account, even a 20 strong unit of marauders would be hard pressed to stand their ground against a successful charge by a 9-strong knight lance. Assuming there's no heroes involved on either side, lets look at the numbers;
Marauders: 3 ranks, 1 banner.
Bretonnians 2 ranks, 1 banner.
Seems like the Bretonnians are losing, but take into account that they'll have the charge and not only can the front three knights fight, so can all the ones along the edge of the lance, 7 knights in total! Eight attacks at strength 5 and seven at strength 3, that's quite a few dead marauders. Say an average of 4 kills from that lot, that leaves only the marauder chieftain to fight back. Let's assume he gets lucky and kills a knight, where does that leave our total combat res scores?;
Marauders: 3 ranks, 1 banner, 1 kill = 5
Bretonnians 2 ranks, 1 banner, 4 kills = 7
Since that fight leaves our marauders at unit strength 16 and the one dead knight means the lance is also unit strength 16 (eight remaining knights), the outnumbering bonus goes to no-one (although the Bretonnians could easily take that too). After we total up the combat res scores we see the Bretonnians win by 2, so the marauders take a break test at Ld 5. They might stand if their lucky, but they'll probably run.
All this assumes average luck on both sides, of course it could swing either way and the knights could massacre the marauders badly and run them all down or the marauders could survive the worse of the knights attacks, kill a few and end up winning. Generally speaking though, the Bretonnians will win fights like this, their lances being designed to run over even large blocks of infantry.
"Peace, through superior firepower."
20 is too small a unit in my opinion for any infantry unit of Ld7. Beef it up even a tiny bit and you get the out number bonus.
I always have a big unit of Maauders with Great Weapons as a specific anti-knight unit. Even light armour, a hand weapon and shield wont help against a S6 knights charge.
Lose four, leaving one or two to hit back. A minimum of 3 S5 Attacks do not go well against knights.
Even if they over run past the marauder unit, earning it a whopping 200 odd points (oh no!), how many marauders do people have in their armies? More likely to find CHosen of Khorne with Additional Hand Weapons. Sure, we wont get outnumbering or 3 ranks, but theyll have to deal with 7 S4 attacks, even with only 2 models left.
Just a small note about the "march cheap unit up in front of his lance" idea.
What do you do when he DOESN'T charge, and just stands there?
It's kinda a stand-off, ain't it? I mean, it's not like you're gonna declare a charge with your dogs.
Exactly (cause the warhounds will just get beaten), but it does mean that he's either got to maneuver around your warhound unit (with no march) or stay there. Either way, it means that his knights are standing around wasting time and aren't getting into combat (and every turn that they aren't charging into combat is a good turn for you!).
It also buys time for you to set up a trap or counterattack against those knights. Ideally with some knights of your own or great weapon minotaurs.
"Peace, through superior firepower."
Originally Posted by red120
Might not be a bad idea. Let's see. charging with the dogs means you take away his mobility since he's tied up in combat (hopefully), he's not charging (which gets rid of the lance formation AND the +2 str for the charge) and he's left either standing there in combat with the dogs (leaving him open for future charges) or possibly persuing if the dogs break. You were planning on losing the dogs anyway, so why not get them into combat with the knights and get rid of the movement and lance formation.
Would you rather take 3 or 4 str 3 hits or 12 str 5?