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If the rumours about the next edition of WHFB in regards to mounted characters in units are true, those mounts will be invaluable.
As the rumours states, mounted characters in infantry units will now both benefit from the "Look out, Sir!"-rule and the fact that they can't be singled out by enemy missile weapons. The only exception to this will be, if the combined unit strength of character and mount exceeds 5.
With the aforementioned exception, only the advantages of using mounts in units are left now:
1) The mount can add its attack(s), which usually are better than the attack(s) of the basic trooper it might replace.
2) The mount might take up space of other troopers that you can leave out, saving their cost and still get the combat resolution of the ranks they were part of.
3) The mount might have special abilities that are somewhat beneficial to the entire unit it's with, e. g. Daemonic Mounts which causes fear.
The mount will effectively add to the entire cost of the unit, but not by the nominal cost stated in the army list. In consideration to 2) the models that the mount replaces must be substracted from it's cost, as the effect on ranks are the same. When the mount itself replaces a trooper in the first rank, you obviously loose the troopers attack(s). This, of cause, makes the calculation less precise, but not futile.
A couple of examples:
Consider a unit of Chaos Warriors of at least two ranks with a character.
a) Character mounted on Daemonic Mount
Chaos Warriors: pts. a piece: x.
Warriors substituted the mount (the character will take up one slot by himself): 3.
Total value of warriors substituted: 3x pts.
Cost of Daemonic Mount: y pts.
Difference (the actual cost of the mount): 3x - y = 8 pts.
- the mount is a little more expensive than 3 chaos warriors, but you get
significantly more hitting power in the front rank and the mount causes fear. The
mount will also add to the characters fighting capabilities in challenges.
Now, if the warriors had been 'chosen', you would actually have saved 10 pts.!, The
Daemonic Mounts attacks would then just be equal to or slightly better than the
b) Character mounted on Barded Chaos Steed
Chaos warriors: pts. a piece: 1x.
Warriors substituted by the mount: 1.
Cost of steed: x.
Difference (the actual cost of the steed): 0 pts.
- You now got one more attack in the first rank and better armour save for your
character at no expense and with no disadvantage whatsoever!
Had the warriors been chosen, you would even have saved some pts!
Similar calculations can be made for units of Chaos Marauders. The points saved by replacing marauders is obviously lesser than for chaos warriors. On the other hand, the combat advantage of the Daemonic Mount is greater, as the attack of the marauder it replaces in the first rank is much weaker than a chaos warriors.
Edit: No individual point costs.
Last edited by No_Mercy; December 18th, 2006 at 21:40.
I like your point that the mounts pay for themselves, especially in a chaos army. And I think mounted characters are just cooler, so that is for the good.
The way you list your math is a bit difficult to sort through. It would probably be easier if you just talked about models, its not like you field the mount and the character seperately. So a character on daemonic mount would displace 4 models (more than pays for the mount if warriors), a character on barded steed would displace two (replaces over twice the cost of the mount in warriors!).
One disadvantage of the mounted characters (as far as I understand the new rules) is loss of line of sight. Characters on foot could move and charge 360 in the old rules, if they are mounted they lost the line of sight. Chaos characters were good enough that charging them into combat with weak units could work sometimes (skirmishers, especially). However, since they can be shot directly now, I guess that ability is not gonna be used much.
The other disadvantage of mounted characters is that in Khorne armies, your characters may be frenzy-baited right out of a unit, and if he is mounted with an infantry unit, he'll get out on his own often, which is not so good. Plus I like the slaughterer's blade, so I may still field my lord on foot...
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The examples of my more or less mathematical calculations are only strictly applicable in situations where you
- got an infantry unit of at least two ranks (to benefit from the size of the mount reaching into the second rank).
- are already sure to include a character, which possibly may be mounted (which is the main issue if he should be).
(- plan on keeping him there through the entire game (and, okay, he's not frenzied ).)
Now, with this in mind, the calculations show, that there would be very common situations for HoC players, where the mount is either so cheap points wise, that it would be "irrational" to keep it out of the unit, or it is entirely free. In some cases you actually save points directly on your army budget by taking it, and without any disadvantage whatsoever coming up the other way around.The math is easy - making myself comprehensible is another matter .The way you list your math is a bit difficult to sort through. It would probably be easier if you just talked about models, its not like you field the mount and the character seperately.
To talk about the character and mount as one wouldn't show the advantage of the mount specifically, and that was the main point. IMHO the math makes it quite clear in the examples with the Chaos Warriors.Of course the mount is only appropriate with a character, but he takes up the space of one trooper by himself anyways. From then on, the number of models further displaced by choosing the Daemonic Mount for the character is only 3 (and obviously one of these is a front rank model).So a character on daemonic mount would displace 4 models (more than pays for the mount if warriors), a character on barded steed would displace two (replaces over twice the cost of the mount in warriors!).
Last edited by No_Mercy; August 28th, 2006 at 19:59.
I do see your logic but there is one thing you missed over all. THe modles your displacing for ranks are modles your losing to the unit. So a unit of 16 could be a unit of 12 since your replacing the 4 modles. the replacing gives you the same point cost so your unit is still 12 modles, leaving you more supsestable to outnumber, panic tests. so the positives may look good, but the cost is more than your thinking, lets just keep looking at it, im sure we willl see bonuses and withdraws.
The obvious advantage that I see for chaos is that for exalted and aspiring champions who would be mounted in infantry units, a chaos steed becomes a nice 16 point armor boost.
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I see all your points here and agree that taking a mounted hero in a infantry unit will be both cost-effective and combat-effective. IMO the few downsides are easily weighted up by the good sides.
It will also be possible to field a daemonic mount in a marauder horsemen unit without risking the hero .. or losing the fast cavalry rule. Problem is .. why do I need him there? :wacko:
Not true. The unit strength of a character (usually 1) adds to that of the unit he is with. Taking a steed will add further 1 unit strength to the character (and thus to the unit), which is equal to the single model it displaces. The overall unit strength will stay the same, so there'll be no difference in regards to outnumbering and panic tests.Originally Posted by laughingman
A Daemonic Mount will add 3 US as far as I remember, which equals the models displaces as well.
The only disadvantage of displacing the rank-and-file models is, if the unit gets reduced to a size when the model(s) the mount originally displaced in the second rank, would now have been needed in the front rank. An unusual situation though.
Last edited by No_Mercy; August 29th, 2006 at 14:41.
ok, ill conseede that point, my mistake, but in a 12 man unit, only 6 people have to die from the unit for the opponent to get half points, 16 man unit is 8. Thats can make the difference. But looking at it more closly, i do see tha adantages to a demonic steed, fear in a unit makes that unit immune to fear, so that may be worth it.
Are you SURE about this? I mean it seems a bit too good to be true. Does the same apply if the hero is immune to psycology?Originally Posted by laughingman
Nope, doesn't work for ItP. But rumour (backed up by seeing the new book, if the people spreading this are to be believed) has it that Fear- or Terror-causing stuff will grant immunity to that kind of Psychology to a unit the causer is with. Pretty much how a dragonrider isn't afraid of Trolls - his Dragon already causes Fear, so there's no need to be afraid.
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