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Army General Tatic(s)

1K views 10 replies 6 participants last post by  coenono 
#1 ·
Before I begin I would like to say that I am new to this forum ... but I have been playing warhammer for sometime(although it has been a few years). So I am not fimilar with the new rules but by the sounds of it they seem pretty similar to the ones I am use to. I hope no one takes offense to this as it is just a observation.


That being said I have been reading a few post lately and a pattern has been developing that makes me sad. It seems that alot of chaos generals seem to fear putting there army general out there where he can do his most damage. To me it doesnt matter at what level. Your chaos character is head and shoulders above any thing in your oponets army at comparable status ..ie espically the lord is better than any other lord character in any army you will be faceing execpt of cource chaos. Its my belief he should be spear heading the assult on the punny armies of this fantasy world. Why put him in a unit of warriors that are going to take 3-4 turns to hit home. I say put him in that unit of hard hitting knights if its a low to medium size game. And in a large game say 2500 (this is where you proable are going to rip me) put him on a dragon.

Now let me explain my thinking if you have your general in a unit of knights. This unit while yes expensive. Is going to be the single deadlest unit on the field when used properly. This unit will have a screen of course and should be in combat by turn 2 Slaming into one of the armies flanks crusing this weak unit under there hooves, Your screeners should be moping up warmachines and the like, Now your knights should be makeing a v line for the opposing armies general and slaming into the back or side of this unit by turn 4 at the latest. crippleing him as another one of your units hits him in the front. Challege this inferior pest and crush him like the weakling he is and send shock waves through his army.

Now on to the general on a dragon.... I now you think this is "all the eggs in one basket", but hear me out. That dragon/general combo should be locked into combat w/ the opposing general by turn 2..3 at the latest. Now u may say combat rez.. well if you kill his army general.... and you should in the first turn on a freaking dragon you should get at least 2 victory points. 1 for chargeing and 1 for wining the combat. he has what at most a 3 u lose by one...u aint going anywhere and since they cant rap around any more pist youll eat up the rest of the unit next turn ...while the rest of your army advances be hind you and should be able to counter charge anything that my try to flank charge you. On that point if you are being flanked just fly away unless its calvary in which case just challenge the unit champion.. no one else can hit ya... by now your oponet has focussed most of his attention to one target makeing counter chargeing him/her that much easier.

I bring up these tactics as it seems people dont body gaurd there general any more which would be the biggest monkey wrench to my theory.


Thanks for takeing time to humor me

The Great Coenono
 
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#2 ·
Whaaa ? Victory points for charging and winning combat ?

Here's why so few generals send him out into the fray with blinding speed. Your horde needs it's leadership.

What's the point of sending him crasing down in a unit of knights, if he'll be going by himself ?

Also, such a unit is very, very effective on the charge, but not so on the wrong end of one. Especially if the lord isn't in a fighting position on a flank. Smart opponents will move up a sacrafical unit and simply flee, and set you up for a spaning if you aren't careful.

Shooting can also do alot of harm to a reckless general, and even more if directed at your supporting units, without them, you have little chance of acheive lasting combat resolution.


Now, he you stick him on a dragon and charge the general's unit here's what will happen. You charge, and issue a challenge. My unit champion accepts. This locks you at 1 wounds plus 5 for overkill. You got a 6. Now, since I'lve got a fully ranked unit, outnumber, a banner, and possibly a warbanner since it's my general's unit, my musician will break the tie. You loose by 1. Leadership 8 isn't too shabby, but there comes your opponent's next turn, and he is likely to send another unit on your flank. This means another unit champion for a challenge, but this time your opponent as the flank. You just got caught in a tarpit situation.
 
#3 ·
I have a lord on Dragon in 2000 points back up by an army made up purely of Chaos Knights. It hasn't lost a game for me yet. The guy on the dragon is just insanely good. Almost every time he attacks he hits on a 3 and wounds on a 2, the same goes for the dragon. In total they have 13 attacks between them. I usually end up killing about 7/8 models although one time i did kill 13 :lol: Either way, I dont have a problem with sending my lord on a dragon out on his own because if he doesnt manage to kill the enemy, 9 times out of 10 i'll pass my leadership test. By the end of the next turn my knights are usually up next to him taking out the rest, but i see what coenono is saying.
 
#4 ·
General

Like I said it has been awhile since I last played. The last box set I bought had the Brits and the Lizies in them.

Now the point is to crush the enemy flank sending panic down there lines. Also if your being charged(unless its a counter charge) w/ knights you deserve to be killed. And you didnt become a chaos lord by reading the Empiral book on how to hide your general so he doesnt have to fight.

Shooting can be minimized by using your screens to make them fight combat instead of shoot...at the very least they aint shooting at your knights. If there is alot of shooting on one side and that happens to be the side or your knights put your knights on then do one of these jobs. you can also bring the hounds/ knights combo in closer to the center and put the furies closer to the table edge if this fits the plan better.


x x x x x xxxxx hounds }table edge
furies xxxxx knights }table edge


The plan: the hounds will look for the weaks unit say like a bolt thrower , a cannon crew, or maybe some high elf archers while the furies find ya some gunners, or maybe even tie down a unit that my cause your knights some trouble if you dont think you can break the unit your chargeing . At which point you can help your furies mop up or vis versa. Now your supporting cast should be marching its way down the line. If it is being shot at well thats just part of the game and w/ at the very least one of his shoting units tied up it isnt going to be that effective. Your knights are going to come on down the enemy lines spreading panic tests ( if you still have to take these for uints fleeing with in 12 inches or maybe it was 6 of your other units). Now knights and what ever else make it to the bigger units should have no trouble with them and the likely hood of much counter chargeing you is unlike as they have been disposed of. But if you do get flanked on your knights you should have more than one unit left to counter charge w/ Now flank charge is great but it opens your flank as well so the only way around this is the oath stone.. but correct me if im wrong didnt that just play into my hand which is to get the general in hand to hand w/ your general.

As far as the general on a dragon I did say unit champions would throw a wrench into my tatic . so u may have to cordinate a charge w a unit of knights this will do a couple of things for you. 1. Right of the bat your going to confusse the hell out of the opposing general who is use to seeing knights on his flank. Now there right in front of him and who lined up next to them ....oooo nothing just a freaking dragon. The army should mostly consist of quick moveing troops but one solid unit of warriors never hurts in any army.
To me muarders are pointless but that is a sepeart topic ill be talking about later.
2. You can only hid form the general for so long. Even if you do get counter charged like I said before You just put a large group of your enemys in one area makeing them come to you which is the ultimate irony for a chaos general.

Also if fleeing really could be a worry why not make this army a slannesh army then you dont have to worry about panic test.

Any way I have enjoyed this i look forward to the responses. This as really got the jucies flowing and I am eager to start playing again.


The Great Coenono
 
#5 ·
General

Like I said it has been awhile since I last played. The last box set I bought had the Brits and the Lizies in them.

Now the point is to crush the enemy flank sending panic down there lines. Also if your being charged(unless its a counter charge) w/ knights you deserve to be killed. And you didnt become a chaos lord by reading the Empiral book on how to hide your general so he doesnt have to fight.

Shooting can be minimized by using your screens to make them fight combat instead of shoot...at the very least they aint shooting at your knights. If there is alot of shooting on one side and that happens to be the side or your knights put your knights on then do one of these jobs. you can also bring the hounds/ knights combo in closer to the center and put the furies closer to the table edge if this fits the plan better.


x x x x x xxxxx hounds }table edge
furies xxxxx knights }table edge


The plan: the hounds will look for the weaks unit say like a bolt thrower , a cannon crew, or maybe some high elf archers while the furies find ya some gunners, or maybe even tie down a unit that my cause your knights some trouble if you dont think you can break the unit your chargeing . At which point you can help your furies mop up or vis versa. Now your supporting cast should be marching its way down the line. If it is being shot at well thats just part of the game and w/ at the very least one of his shoting units tied up it isnt going to be that effective. Your knights are going to come on down the enemy lines spreading panic tests ( if you still have to take these for uints fleeing with in 12 inches or maybe it was 6 of your other units). Now knights and what ever else make it to the bigger units should have no trouble with them and the likely hood of much counter chargeing you is unlike as they have been disposed of. But if you do get flanked on your knights you should have more than one unit left to counter charge w/ Now flank charge is great but it opens your flank as well so the only way around this is the oath stone.. but correct me if im wrong didnt that just play into my hand which is to get the general in hand to hand w/ your general.

As far as the general on a dragon I did say unit champions would throw a wrench into my tatic . so u may have to cordinate a charge w a unit of knights this will do a couple of things for you. 1. Right of the bat your going to confusse the hell out of the opposing general who is use to seeing knights on his flank. Now there right in front of him and who lined up next to them ....oooo nothing just a freaking dragon. The army should mostly consist of quick moveing troops but one solid unit of warriors never hurts in any army.
To me muarders are pointless but that is a sepeart topic ill be talking about later.
2. You can only hid form the general for so long. Even if you do get counter charged like I said before You just put a large group of your enemys in one area makeing them come to you which is the ultimate irony for a chaos general.

Also if fleeing really could be a worry why not make this army a slannesh army then you dont have to worry about panic test.

Any way I have enjoyed this i look forward to the responses. This as really got the jucies flowing and I am eager to start playing again.


The Great Coenono
 
#6 ·
Like I said it has been awhile since I last played. The last box set I bought had the Brits and the Lizies in them.
The Great Coenono
Welcome back!

I was in your shoes about 13 months ago, coming back to the game and dusting off my old ugly single pose lizardmen models from the 5th edition box... I quickly purchased a chaos army, and I've been loving it ever since. If you honestly haven't played in a while, there's one thing you're gonna have to come to grips with...

The game has really changed.

The days of herohammer are largely in the past, blocks of infantry and static combat resolution can win the day for you more times than a decisive character. Honestly, anything can happen when you charge with a chaos lord geared out on a dragon (over 600 points, geared up), but you're not facing a +3 as you suggested.

If you're solo-charging a full ranked unit, you are likely facing +3 for ranks, +1 for standard and +1 for outnumbering you. The unit probably also has a musician, which means you will have to do a whopping SIX wounds to win combat.

will you get 6 wounds? Quite possibly. But what if you don't? What if he has ANY tricks up his sleeve? All it takes is one or two things to go a little wrong and BAM! You lose combat by 3. Next thing you know your Chaos Meatgrinder is taking a break test on Ld 6, fleeing away 68% of the time!

Chaos Lords aren't the absolute masters of combat anymore either. A Lizardman Oldblood, a Vampire, an Ogre Tyrant... any of these things can stand toe to toe with you. New rules exist to further scare the Chaos Lord... Killing Blow, a rather prevalant ability, will kill a chaos lord outright, regardless of wounds or armour!

None of this is to say that we should be timid with our combat monsters, but discretion is still the better part of valour here. Use your weight where it can be most effective, not as a hammer to slaughter your enemy wholesale. It just don't work like that no more.

:)
 
#8 ·
Tought Pill to swallow

I just have a hard time swallowing the fact that , even if you put your general on foot, He is still going to be a good amount of points. And your not going to even get into combat till maybe turn 3 if your lucky. And since Chaos doesnt have any shooting your enemy is going to be mostly intact by the time you sonter on down, plus being shot at. Not to metion the fact that your knights (imo) are going to be less effective with out the support of there general.

As far as the general and dragon they would be supported by a unit of knights. Now I would proably use different tatics per the army i am faceing. I would be my most consured against night gobos and lizzard men, but for different reasons. Gabos for there fantics, in which case i would try to mostly flank charge them after another unit has drawn them out. If its a stricly night goblin unint i might not even use a dragon. And lizard men cuz i have never faced them so i do not know what they can dish out.

Vampire Counts, while i have never faced a "Vampire Count Army list". But form what I observed by looking around they are not that cheap of an army either, other thene skeletons, so i think i would stand a 50/50 shot.. which is all you can ask for in a game of two evenly matched opponets that comes down to dice rolls.

I like Khornes Frenzy, but honestly in fantasy I would have to say he is my least favorite god. Basic chaos are good at Magic and CC, and above average in movement. To me Khorne is limiting your self to one Good and one Ok portion of the game while takeing away something you are good at to begin with. I would proably go with Slannesh or Nurgel depending on what I thought I would need.
 
#9 ·
I agree that dragons and knights with Lord are very potent offensively. However, they are also curiously fragile.

Dwarves and O&G are out, with Empire on the way, so you are looking at a lot of cannons, rock lobbers, and bolt throwers in the near future of warhammer. These weapons can mince dragons and knights pretty quickly, and a little shooting or magic beforehand will do away with screening troops.

After learning this the hard way a couple of times, I stopped playing dragon characters or big units of expensive knights. These units just don't have enough wounds to survive reliably against 1 turn of dedicated shooting. So now I use a crawling lord and a warrior retinue, and have lots of fast things to lure opponents to me.

Koosh
 
#10 ·
There are other ways to get heavy hitters with a nice bit of mobility. Never forget a Daemon Prince/Exalted can be kitted out nicely and hit a front/flank just fine as a unit of Knights or even Maraurder horseman hit the front/flank in combination. I've even used hounds to hit a flank while and slam my Exalted into the front. This combined is usually enough to break a unit. This last weekend I used my Doombull with 3 Minotaurs with great weapons hitting an ironbreaker unit on the flank to send the stunties running. My point is, there are plenty of other units if you feel placing your Lord on a dragon is to much exposure for your liking
 
#11 ·
Interesting

I wasnt really going to respond as I did want to want annoy anyone, but you bring up a good point mouse. As I still would like my general to spear head my knights, I have always like minotaurs and nurgal has been one of my favorite gods. The nurgal minotarus sound sweet, and the demon models look cool as well. With all the options open to me that can basicly fill the same role I think I might just keep my general in the units of knights. I just have a dragon from my high elves and I never have used it. I want to get some minotaurs and some furries so it maybe awhile before I can atcually field a chaos army, not to metion that my models are really old. I have enough models to field one but i dont have a screen for my knights, and while Im crazy im not crazy enough to send my knights out there with out some protection.
 
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