Know Thy Enemy

[Fizzics]

We are all sitting around saying that this list is better or worse than another list, and blah blah blah.

The thing(s) that I am really interested in talking about is how to deal with threats on the board. Stuff that we are going to deal with reguardless of the list that we are playing and regardless of the point value.

So here is the question that I would like to take a good long look at.

Lets say you go to a GT, you get to your table, greet your opponent, and swap army lists. At this point you have 10 minutes to prep. Deep strike army? CC? Shooty? You know the drill. Those questions are pretty easy to answer in those ten minutes. The real problem is target identification.

The demon prince that is all painted may not be as big of a threat as the primer gray obliterators sitting in the back field. The problem that I have is that I don't own all of the codices. Granted I have thumbed through the majority of them, but I wouldn't know what gear the Emperor's Champion has if I have to fight a Black Templar army.

So bearing all of this in mind, what do we do, as Sister's players, we are facing something that we don't know everything about. Shoot the painted model doesn't always work. How do we identify threats? What are things we should look for in specific armies that give us problems.


Lets try to get the forum a little away from "is this list good" because we are all basically using the same 8 units. I'd like to see us move toward tactics not list building. Its the skill of generalship, and to a lessor extent list building that when games. Lets be better players.

[Roban365]

As a thumb rule try to find a pattern or keys in your opponent's army.

Like the daemon prince example you mentioned.
It will probably have a lash and given the obliterators that prince is the key to maximum effectiveness from the obliterators, but the obliterators are also those who will likely go after heavier units.
Thing is that until you neutralize the lash the obliterators will go at full effect and will then be slightly less effective.
But, if you neutralize the obliterators the prince has lost it's original purpose. That is far better than lowering the effectiveness of the obliterators.


However, I have never faced a lash-list before so these are only my own theories.

Cheers!

[GAX70]

fantastic im with all the way on this! tactics planing out thinking and outmaneuvering is why i play the game. its more or less what i have been hoping how topic of the week would go (funny thing im runing out of topics) i have been working on sum new Exorcist tactics i need to get on the table soon.

[Interrogator_Krikk]

Originally Posted by Fizzics

I'd like to see us move toward tactics not list building. Its the skill of generalship, and to a lessor extent list building that when games. Lets be better players.

You have my chainsword!

A tactical variation I enjoyed recently: Reserves in Spearhead deployment.

You got spearhead and the OppForce is likely to come towards you because it's a cc-strong unit? Leave some units in reserve for once! Since their rush comes in a diagonal line across the field it's quite possible (depending on terrain) that you can move in on his side with a sister squad or his back with an exorcist and shoot him when coming onto the table.

Pro: You get to shoot screened units without cover saves, get close to heavy weapon squads in the back, hit low rear armor and may circle around the rush for objectives on his side of the table. You could also intercept his rush in the middle of the table when you come in turn 2 (50% chance) and draw it away from your heavy back support or objectives on your side. Either way you probably split his army in smaller parts (of course, same goes for your own).

Contra: If you roll badly at reserve rolls the rush will already be there and you might loose quite some rounds of exorcist shooting, which is always very bad.

[Rabbit]

This is a good thread. We should have one posted in every forum.

Originally Posted by Roban365

Like the daemon prince example you mentioned.
It will probably have a lash and given the obliterators that prince is the key to maximum effectiveness from the obliterators, but the obliterators are also those who will likely go after heavier units.
Thing is that until you neutralize the lash the obliterators will go at full effect and will then be slightly less effective.
But, if you neutralize the obliterators the prince has lost it's original purpose. That is far better than lowering the effectiveness of the obliterators.

Assigning target priority among two very potent units varies from list to list. As a chaos player, I tend to protect my oblits with as much cover as possible, considering their expensive nature and predisposition towards falling to "instant killed" las-cannons and the likes. However, the real thrust of any chaos list which utilizes a lash prince isn't generally in the lash/blast combo, but the ability to guarantee your infantry receive the charge. Chaos thrives on swiftly executed combined attacks, which the Lash Prince ensures. On this account, the lash-o-prince certainly does not lose its purpose when his obliterators perish.

So, how does one determine target priority between a prince and a pair of oblits? Let's ignore their offensive threat for the moment and strictly look at the viability of destroying each unit. Dual oblits run about the same as the Lash Prince, although the Prince is considerably more challenging to kill (as are all Monstrous Creatures). For armies such as Tau, which tend to have a few solid tank busting weapons, focusing on the oblits will yield much more immediate results. After all, there's not much reason for targeting a Monstrous Creature with a rail gun if you cannot kill it, especially if there are other targets which can be destroyed in a single round- oblits come to mind. On the other hand, sisters are renowned for their special weapon output. I'd reckon most of you ladies have a very respectable population of melta volley just waiting to be unleashed in your armies- not to mention your other hard-hitters. Hence, for armies such as Sisters, it's probably best to focus on the Prince, seeing as how you can produce sufficient firepower for taking it down in a single turn.

If I can make a general statement about most mech armies, whether Sisters or Marines, Chaos or Eldar: If you can strip your enemy's infantry of mobility, then you have greatly tilted the game in your favor. Success in fifth edition hinges strongly on board control. In fact, it's not uncommon to see a veteran player ignore enemy predators in order to take down rhinos, since impeding Marine movement will ultimately give one control over the table.

[Fizzics]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

This is a good thread. We should have one posted in every forum.

thanks

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Assigning target priority among two very potent units varies from list to list. As a chaos player, I tend to protect my oblits with as much cover as possible, considering their expensive nature and predisposition towards falling to "instant killed" las-cannons and the likes. However, the real thrust of any chaos list which utilizes a lash prince isn't generally in the lash/blast combo, but the ability to guarantee your infantry receives the charge. Chaos thrives on swiftly executed combined attacks, which the Lash Prince ensures. On this account, the lash-o-prince certainly does not lose its purpose when his obliterators perish.

This is what I am talking about. I am not a Chaos player. There are only a few people at my shop that do play them. I don't have enough time to play 20-30 games with them, seeing as I need to play against other armies, I only play one day a week, and all the other stuff that goes on.

I didn't know they are focusing on mainly combo'd attacks. Perhaps that is kinda noobish of me, but whatever. It would be nice to discuss some of the tactics that OTHER armies use so that we can be aware, and we can discuss specific plans on dealing with those armies. it is not how well you play your army, it is how well you play your army against another army.

I'd like to see us break down some of the more popular builds that are going on these days. General stuff.. like should we spend our time shooting the exorcist at TH/SS terminators or focus on the biker command squad. Things that we can use when we are out and about during the week.

Keep the ball rolling, and do go giving my idea to the other forums. I want more sisters on the top tables.

[The Prince of Excess]

I don't know if this applies to me because I have every Codex memorized but here'es what I do.

The key is to know your list inside and out. What hurts you the most? What units do you really need to have a good game?

If you know that, it's very easy to have a kill priority. Using the original example, if you play Mech SoB, Lash doesn't do jack until your Rhinos get popped, so you want to keep them intact. Those Obliterators are probably looking at your armor hungrily, so you want to assign some units against them, like 1-2 Exorcists.

I always make a mental list of what needs to die and what I can ignore safely, possibly with terrain or just accepting the odds of what might happen.

Roban mentioned seeing patterns. If you know what something can do, like a Lash Prince, you can make an educated guess as to what it's going to do and possibly counter it before it happens. Maybe he deploys first and sets that Prince on a flank. If you have a shooty foot unit, put them on the other side of the board. Now he is either going right at that unit, or he's ignoring it and not using Lash.

You don't have to know every Codex, just ask what something does, or read it on the list if it's an Army Builder roster. Two guys were playing last week, IG vs SW. The SW player had no idea what a Banewolf was and didn't ask, so he disembarked a GH squad near it and shot down a 60 point Platoon Squad. Next turn, those GHs were gone. Ask questions, it pays off.

[GAX70]

most of the more common lists you'll see are...

-Space marine, salamanders/mech
-orks, swarm/half mech
-Imperial Guard, mech/half mech
-Eldar, mech/jetbikes
-chaos, mech/Death guard

lets start there.

[Rabbit]

Prince of Excess explained the situation very well. In fact, his analysis should be the poster-child for anyone looking for basic 40K tactics. Prince, I'd rep you, but I already gave you some earlier today for some comments you made in the Chaos Army List section. GAX70 also provided the base lists you should be aware of when designing a renaissance Sister army.

I can't comment on how you should deal with other forces, but when it comes to Chaos, I think I've gathered some bits of wisdom over the years. For example, any experienced chaos player who fields a Lash Prince knows that this one model has gained infamy for being the prime target. Therefore, the prince is usually under the protection of various terrain pieces and armor shields. Even without the Lash, a daemon prince is quite dangerous. I mean, you can't simply bounce around him with your rhinos, hoping to pop shot it to death, or the prince will engage your transports in melee. My advice would be to deal as much long range damage to the beast while you can, knowing it will likely survive to rush your in close combat. However, if your army has done its job, then you should have reduced the prince down to one or two wounds, at which point, a lucky round of c.c. will take him down. Timing is key. Expect to lose a squad to him in close combat, but have another unit ready that can spam him to death with basic bolter fire and volleys of melta/plasma rounds. Funny enough, Princes aren't *that* hard to take down with bolter spam. After all, against basic fire, the prince is easier to wound than a plague marine! As I said, timing is vital. There are instances when you must know when to disembark and unload your rapid fire weapons, while at other times, you must remain cooped up in rhinos and shoot special weapons ammunition from your fire points. This just takes practice. Nothing else will suffice.

Dealing with Chaos Marines is about like dealing with our sissy loyalists; you have to cripple our spearheads, while giving some attention to our dreads and preds (oblits, defilers & princes too). Look to your plasma options, which treat plague marines just the same as any other marine (i.e. wounds on a 2+ with no saves allowed, including Feel No Pain). In addition, realize that rhinos are probably the most underrated vehicle in the game. They are not merely a transport! Against melee swarms, place your troops outside of the rhinos. Then, rush forward with the empty rhinos and thwart the enemy advance by creating "bottleneck" scenarios. This should force Orks and Nids into a bind that will yield you one to two extra rounds of shooting.

[The Prince of Excess]

Another handy tidbit against any army can be knowing thy rules. Example: Plague Marines are T5 and FnP, quite the problem for your Bolter Sisters right? Well, toss Divine Guidance on a unit, maybe with a Flamer/HF combo, and they won't look quite as resilient.

One of Sisters greatest assets against any MEQs is, you have more Bolters than they do. Marines do not auto-pass armor saves, they still roll them. If you have 2 units for each one of his (possibly more!) you're going to be putting out many more S4 shots than they can shrug off.

As Rabbit said, a Rhino is a huge asset. Maybe your Exorcist pops a transport. Next turn you can move 2 squads into position, hop out on one side and use the Rhino as an AV11 wedge, giving your Sisters their own private area to gun down a squad in safety.

5th Ed has given more terrain and more MOBILE terrain. Use both to thine advantage.