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Thread: 2250, WE Shooty

  1. #1
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    2250, WE Shooty

    I'm a relative newb to the WH rule sets, but I've played other forms of similar strategy games.

    Still debating between calling this army "Death on a String" or "Scream, Aim, Fire!"

    Highborn (General)
    Annoyance of Netlings
    Bow or Loren
    Starfire Arrows
    Eternal Guard x10
    Champion

    Noble
    Hail of Doom arrows
    Eternal Guard x10
    Champion
    Spell Singer
    Level 2
    Calaingor's Stave
    Dispell Scroll

    Glade Guard x10
    Musician
    Glade Guard x10
    Musician
    Glade Guard x10
    Standard
    Glade Guard x10
    Glade Guard x10

    Scouts x5
    Scouts x5

    Waywatchers x5
    Waywatchers x5

    Warhawk Riders x3
    Champion

    Wild Riders x6
    Champion
    Standard
    Musician

    Wardancers x5
    Champion


    The primary strategy I'm thinking is to do everything I can to avoid the majority of melee combat until Turn 3 or later, using march blocking, panic, maneuvering, tree singing, and strategic fleeing. That should give me the maximum possible time to push for 78 arrow shots every round.

    I would deploy with the 2 eternal guard unit's side by side. With the mage in there along with the general I'm hoping to inspire my opponents to aim their charges at these blocks. Hopefully using a forest or hard cover to secure one flank and staging the Wild Riders and War Dancers on the other flank set back to make them less tempting charge targets and harder to get LoS on.

    After round 3, my goal is to disband the Spell Singer from the eternal guard, charge with the EG units onto what ever blocks my opponent has brought over to play, and to use my Wild Riders and War Dancers as flanking charges. That should leave what ever is left of my mobile/ranged units to take down any remaining fleeing units, siege machines, and casters.

    One the main melee is engaged, I'm planning on using the Champion/General to selectively answer challenges. With the Netlings spite, I'm hoping the General can effectively eliminate a melee monster character for 3 rounds. That should hopefully keep the stubborn unit from breaking before the fear causing charge from the wild riders to the flank. Depending on losses I also have a unit of Glade Guard with a banner that could perform a flank charge to try to push for a combat rez win.

    The weakness I'm seeing in the combat is that both of my "core" units are only 11 members, which means losing 2 wounds negates my rank bonus for CR. If we break the opponent units in turn 4, but look like we're going to take a counter charge, I would likely reform the units and combine the remains of both.

    Obviously this army has some serious limitations. If someone marches 3 lances of heavy bret cavalry into my flanks, it's gonna be all over. And those high toughness dwarves will likely be shrugging off a lot of the arrow fire and ignoring my fear/panic tests. But I think it would be fun to play

    -Rick


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  3. #2
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    sorry, but anyone with a decent amount of magic and who can roll dice on average, will rip this army apart. I say magic, because you'll be able to stop about 1-2 spells a turn. My current high elf list has at least 2x 2D6 str 4 magic missiles in it, sometimes 3. That means come turn 1, you won't have anything to march block with, and turn 2-3 I'm charging you (woods or no woods) and kicking WE tail. Str 3 shooting isn't that good. I know you'll get str 4 if within close range, but then you'll have to deal with combat, which none of your units can. The other problem you'll have is deploying your troops. You don't have room on the board (if there is terrain) to effectively deploy 50 bow-shooters and another 2 sets of eternal guard.

    You may be able to win a few games with this list, but you will have a hard time staying on the board longer than turn 4 against Ogres, Brettonians, High Elves, Undead, lizardmen, and even some Empire and O&G lists.

    A balanced list will win you more battles and teach you more about the game - which will make you a better player in the long run. Try putting 2x Glade Guard, 2x Dryads, and at least 1 Glade Rider units in every army. Everything else can be added to change/modify the feel/emphasis of the list after that with special choices, Eternal Guard, specifically tooled characters, etc.

  4. #3
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    Highborn (General)
    Annoyance of Netlings
    Bow or Loren
    Starfire Arrows
    Eternal Guard x10
    Champion

    A unit of 10 EG will not work. I think you need to get rid of them. You need to make the general a shooter or a close combatant. If a shooter, use the bow, and arrows(consider changing the arrows to the arcane bodkins, the wood elf standard). Drop the netlings, give him a shield, light armor, and a great weapon in case he happens to get into combat. With the extra points get him either the glamourweave or Stone of the Crystal Mere. If you want combat, there are many different set ups. Helm of the hunt is always nice.
    Noble
    Hail of Doom arrows
    Make this guy an alter for the extra move and shot. Give him a great weapon, shield, and light armour

    Eternal Guard x10
    Champion
    Drop.

    Spell Singer
    Level 2
    Calaingor's Stave
    Dispell Scroll
    1 lvl2 won't do anything for you, drop to level 1 with 2 scrolls

    Glade Guard x10
    Musician
    Glade Guard x10
    Musician
    Glade Guard x10
    Standard
    Glade Guard x10
    Glade Guard x10
    Too many units, three is most I would use, two is the usual. Never give them a standard, musicians only.

    Scouts x5
    Scouts x5
    Never liked these guys, too expensive for what they do.

    Waywatchers x5
    Waywatchers x5
    1 unit is usually enough, but I am not totally against 2.

    Warhawk Riders x3
    Champion
    I actually like warhawk riders but I would never use the champion.

    Wild Riders x6
    Champion
    Standard
    Musician

    Wardancers x5
    Champion
    This unit needs to be bigger, 7 is the usual minimum, and I like both upgrades if you can work them in.
    I agree with buckeroo that this list would have a really hard time winning games. You really have a huge lack of combat troops that can stand up to combat. And you have so many units you will just be getting in your own way too much. I would really suggest studying some of the other lists and tweaking one to your liking. Sorry if it sounds a little harsh, but you wanted honest opinions I assume.

    SirKently

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckero0 View Post
    sorry, but anyone with a decent amount of magic and who can roll dice on average, will rip this army apart. I say magic, because you'll be able to stop about 1-2 spells a turn. My current high elf list has at least 2x 2D6 str 4 magic missiles in it, sometimes 3.
    I have been toying around with a slight variation on this list going with 2x level 2 spell singers. Extra dispel dice, scroll, and a 3rd tree singing a round.

    That means come turn 1, you won't have anything to march block with,
    Can units that are out of LOS still march block? If I stick a way watcher unit 2" in a forest, out of LoS, I don't believe you'll be able to cast on them, but wouldn't they still march block any units that are trying to come with in 8" of them? Regardless, with 4 late deployment units and 3 flyers, I think there would still be a number of march blocking options available even if you got all of your spells off on round 1. But that is definitely a concern.

    and turn 2-3 I'm charging you (woods or no woods) and kicking WE tail.
    I think that would be the big challenge for my opponents. I'm sure anyone I play with regularly will toss up a banner and other toys to cross the field in shorter time frames. Also, going with the 2 level 2 spell casters would allow for 3 forest singing casts. House rules around here are that you only need base contact with a forest for the unit to be an eligible target for the direct damage component of the spell. So if someone marched/charged into contact with a forest, you are looking at dispelling 4x D6 S5 casts (3x tree singing, 1x fury of the forest). With only 6 cast dice, dispelling those isn't going to be too difficult though.

    Str 3 shooting isn't that good. I know you'll get str 4 if within close range,
    With 75+ dice a turn, each individual shot doesn't have to be great. Figuring most of those rolls will be at 3+, ~50 should hit, and even if they need 5+ to wound, ~17 should succeed. Even if due to range/los I can only get off 2/3rds of those shots on round 1, that's still 11 wounds. Strategically placed on smaller units, or with the effect of the Arcane bolts, that should be enough to pop a panic test.

    but then you'll have to deal with combat, which none of your units can.
    I'm not sure. Yeah, the eternal guard isn't going to score much for kills, but that's not their job. They just need to occupy the assualting force while the wild riders charge in. If the ranged fire picked off a couple of models on the march across the field, that may be enough for fear + outnumber. If not, charge the wardancers in and use the wild riders movement to circle around to the other flank for a charge in the next round.

    The other problem you'll have is deploying your troops. You don't have room on the board (if there is terrain) to effectively deploy 50 bow-shooters and another 2 sets of eternal guard.
    Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm liking the idea of merging the EG units. Doing that, I might move the Noble into another unit. But all of the tables I play on are either 48x72 or 48x96, and I can easily snag a hill in our terrain placement. So getting 3x 10 wide units and 2x 5 wide (2 rank) units of glade guard deployed shouldn't be too difficult. I'm sure there will be LoS and range issues, but that's part of the fun

    You may be able to win a few games with this list, but you will have a hard time staying on the board longer than turn 4 against Ogres, Brettonians, High Elves, Undead, lizardmen, and even some Empire and O&G lists.
    And that is definitely the week point of my knowledge. I've been going to games for a few weeks now, and watching other people play, picking up on the strengths and weaknesses of each faction. Last week I played a VT army vs Dwarves. Great army, and luckily I had the owner there coaching me on the strengths, weaknesses, and abilities of his army. And with the magic phase movements, that would have been one heck of a fight for this army, but it would have been a great one to watch unfold. Tonight I'm borrowing an Empire army, and I'm very interested to see how they play out. But all in all, I know very little about my opponents.

    A balanced list will win you more battles and teach you more about the game - which will make you a better player in the long run. Try putting 2x Glade Guard, 2x Dryads, and at least 1 Glade Rider units in every army. Everything else can be added to change/modify the feel/emphasis of the list after that with special choices, Eternal Guard, specifically tooled characters, etc.
    I'm not sold on the Dryads. The fear is nice, but they're not strong enough to do a frontal charge, and they don't negate rank. So any use of them would be in the same way as I intend to use wild riders, as a flanking charge combined with eternal guard to (hopefully) cause auto breaks. The war riders are significantly more maneuverable, have a better WS, 5+ save, and +1S on charge. They aren't quite as tough, and the horse's attack is only WS 3, but the goal for them in this situation is to be unit breakers, not toe-to-toe fighters. So for this situation, I think the wild riders have a slight edge. Statistically, the wild riders have a slightly worse worst case outcome and a significantly better best case out come. Factor in the points cost though, and the Dryads aren't looking like that bad of a unit.

    Glade riders I do like though, a lot. But at twice the cost of glade guard I would be losing a lot of arrows. And while Glade riders might get slightly better performance on round 2, and may lend them selves to some great delay tactics, it would cost me a lot of shots from round 1. We'll see, I might try working them in, especially if I run into a few rather fast moving armies

    As it is said though, a good battle plan will stand up to anything, except it's first battle. So I may go running home in turn 4 crying for a treeman and dryads


    Thanks for the recommendations, and I look forward to hearing more


    -Rick

    PS: please take nothing I say as an attack, I am merely trying to debate the performance of these units to gain a better understanding of them. I would gladly buy you a beer and discuss such things as friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirkently View Post
    I agree with buckeroo that this list would have a really hard time winning games. You really have a huge lack of combat troops that can stand up to combat. And you have so many units you will just be getting in your own way too much. I would really suggest studying some of the other lists and tweaking one to your liking. Sorry if it sounds a little harsh, but you wanted honest opinions I assume.

    SirKently
    I fully appreciate the honesty. I had a Major ask me for my honest opinion once. I told him the truth, and he didn't care for it, but he listened anyways and made a better decision for it. Even if I did wind up a few inches from losing corporal

    I think there is a good bit of tweaking to do, but for right now I want to avoid going down the same road that everyone else has trodden on. And some of this is just me wanting to test myself. Looking at this army, or at any unbalanced archer army, it becomes patently clear that with out significant strategy, knowledge, and forethought, that the army will be crushed in short order. And I am fully planning on getting stomped But putting myself into difficult positions where success is more so based on strategy and movement as opposed to stats and marching a block across a map, is my idea of fun

    Oh, and the general was suppose to have light armor and a shield. I fail at transcribing. And merging the two EG units would mean booting the noble out. Either in exchange for a second caster, or to an Alter.

    I am curious about the 7 wardancers though. That's wide enough for that you'd need 5 enemies to get everyone in combat. And at 5 wide you are either taking a frontal charge, which is not a good situation, or you are flank charging something that is 5-ranks deep (also not a good idea). And any number of models from 5 to 8 means you need to lose 2 wounds for a panic test. So I was expecting the optimum to be 5. That leaves you with a 3-rank minimum flank charge, 2 wounds to panic, and a small enough number of points that if they do get broke or charged, it's not a ton of points.

    -Rick

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    What I consider adequate magic defense: singer, lvl 1, 2 scrolls; branchwraith, lvl 1, cluster. I take some lumps, but then I get into combat quickly where most opponents spells don't work. Then I kick their butts.

    Any model/unit, LoS or not, can marchblock. Except for fanatics.

    Eternal Guard love a BSB. Rerolling stubborn means they go nowhere. Of course, if they're dead, it doesn't matter. Having ten means most will die when they are charged by a chariot and those that don't die will die the next turn. Having 20 supported on the flanks by nasty wardancers and dryads mean you win.

    4 scouting units! Are you insane, man! Where are you going to deploy all those? You're lucky usually to be able to deploy one unit out of sight. Even with waywatchers special deployment rules, you don't have a lot of options for so many scouting units. I like scouts more than waywatchers.

    I have seen 50 glade guard used to tremendously good effect. This guy took 50 archers, two treemen, a unit of treekin, some dryads, and some very pared-down heroes. It was impossible to get points out of him. You could spend the whole game eliminiating 3 unit of archers just to have 20 more still shooting your butt to pieces. And he wouldn't always engaged with the treemen since they represented almost 600 pts. Killing characters hardly counted because they had next to nothing on them. It was a very effective list in the hands of a very smart general. Your list with that much shooting would have a hard time putting the EG to effect. Just where are you going to deploy all those horizontal units and still leave room for the dryads, war dancers, and wild riders to advance?

    I disagree about Ogres. You will shoot them to ribbons as long as you don't deploy more than 7 inches up or so.

    Dryads are the BOMB. The TREE BOMB. THE BOMB DIGGITY AND ALL THAT. They rock. Don't leave home without them. The best twelve points in the whole of warhammer. Skirmish. Two high initiative, high weapon skill, high strength attacks, with a limited ward save, and high toughness. And they cause fear and are ItP. They kick butt.

    Glade Riders are handy, too, but don't be afraid to sacrifice them. They don't cost any more than glade guard, after all.

    As for wardancers, I use two units of 7 with musicians in each. That way, as you note, if they hit a frontage of 5, all 7 will get to attack. If they hit a flank of 4, that's ok, one's in back. Also, some will die to shooting and magic. Having 7 let's me lose a couple and still claim a flank or rear bonus, or just have enough attacks to matter.
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    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    Well davidvc04 covered most of it. All I would add is that wardancers are immune to psychology, so they will not panic due to losses.

    SirKently

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidVC04 View Post
    What I consider adequate magic defense: singer, lvl 1, 2 scrolls; branchwraith, lvl 1, cluster. I take some lumps, but then I get into combat quickly where most opponents spells don't work. Then I kick their butts.
    Unfortunately, getting into combat is the last thing I want to do as an archer army. :/

    Any model/unit, LoS or not, can marchblock. Except for fanatics.
    Good to know

    Eternal Guard love a BSB. Rerolling stubborn means they go nowhere. Of course, if they're dead, it doesn't matter. Having ten means most will die when they are charged by a chariot and those that don't die will die the next turn. Having 20 supported on the flanks by nasty wardancers and dryads mean you win.
    Working in the BSB is dificult as (if I'm reading correctly) I need a noble to carry it, which means a significant number of points on a block that was expensive to start with. My newly tweeked list has a single unit of 15 EG (with champ, standard, highborn, and caster) which should hold up a little better. Ideal flanking is being performed by Wardancers, Wild Riders, and depending on terrain, some other form of coverage.

    4 scouting units! Are you insane, man! Where are you going to deploy all those? You're lucky usually to be able to deploy one unit out of sight.
    Heh, good call. Thinking of the games I've seen played, that is going to be a significant issue. I'm thinking some might get the axe.

    Dryads are the BOMB. The TREE BOMB. THE BOMB DIGGITY AND ALL THAT. They rock. Don't leave home without them. The best twelve points in the whole of warhammer. Skirmish. Two high initiative, high weapon skill, high strength attacks, with a limited ward save, and high toughness. And they cause fear and are ItP. They kick butt.
    I can definitely see a use for them. And given how I see some games play out, I might bring them in place of some ranged fire power.

    Glade Riders are handy, too, but don't be afraid to sacrifice them. They don't cost any more than glade guard, after all.
    I'm all for using the GR as bait. But per model they cost twice as much as the glade guard. If the goal is to get the max number of arrows in the air on turn 1, glade guard makes more sense. But if march blocking isn't going to keep you safe long enough, using GR for baiting flank charges is a great option.

    I borrowed an Empire army last night and fought a nurgle army. I definately learned a good bit from that fight. Against the Empire army, I think the WE archer army would do rather well, larger troop blocks, but easier wounds. The nurgle army I fought though, would have been tough. good sized blocks of high toughness melee monsters with a save. It would have been 5+ to wound for all of my ranged, and with saves I'd be lucky to pull off much better than a 10% wound rate.

    On a side note, I got destroyed using that Empire army. It actually started off really well, and I was in really good shape when the lines met. He declared a challenge, I met with a champion. His character had 5 attacks and a weapon that negated armor saves. He rolled all 5's and 6's for both the 5 hits and the 5 wounds. I think I needed 3's to avoid fleeing, and even with the General and BSB right there, both units took off. The General's unit (25 strong) was run down, but the BSB managed to rally. From there it was all down hill. I managed to route two more of his units, but even with flanking and rear charges, I just didn't have the fire power to cut through his armor and minotaurs.

    -Rick

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    Updated list. All x## include champions. 5 dispel dice, only 4 casting, but there is much for a casting offensive here. The general should be a stick, a 3+ save and the annoyance of netlings will hopefully keep him sitting pretty while keeping any challengers tied up. Only a best of 74 arrows loosed each round, and I'm a little concerned about my flanks. Definitely going to have to use some strategic cover to keep at least one flank tied down, with only one unit of EG in the middle, I know I'll be more secure against a frontal assault, but it limits a lot of defensive movements to limit flanking. So I'm still going to be counting on a lot of help from those 74 arrows each round. Rough estimate would put a hit on 3, wound on 4 should average 24 wounds a round, hit on 4 wound on 5 drops that down to 12 wounds though. Also going to have the Branchwraith somewhat exposed with out a unit to protect her, but I can probably tuck her out of LOS on a flank to take pot shots on anyone trying to cut the corner, before retreating back towards the EG unit.

    Highborn (General)
    Annoyance of Netlings
    Bow or Loren
    Starfire Arrows (probably switch to arcane bodkins for high armor opponents)
    Enchanted Shield
    Elf Steed

    Eternal Guard x21
    Champion
    Standard
    Musician

    Spell Singer
    Level 1 Mage
    Dispel Scroll
    Dispel Scroll

    Branch Wraith
    Level 1 Mage
    Cluster of Radiants
    Pageant of Strikes

    Glade Guard x10
    Musician

    Glade Guard x10
    Musician

    Glade Guard x10
    Musician

    Glade Guard x10

    Glade Guard x10

    Waywatchers x5

    Scouts x5
    Musician
    Banner of Zenith

    Warhawk Riders x3

    Wild Riders x7
    Champion
    War Banner
    Musician

    Wardancers x7
    Champion

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