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Hi, I will soon have a game coming up soon which is a grudge match between friends and myself. We are going to have a 2000pts tournament. Having played 1000pts WE for so long I planned my expanded army to 2000pts, but need people to comment on where it can be improved:
This has been edited, see bottom for reason and date
Highborne: - 290
Moonstone of Hidden Ways
Annoyance of Netlings
Branch Wraith - 165
Level 1 Wizard
2x A Cluster of Radiants
Noble - 158
Helm of the Hunt
Hail of Doom Arrow
Spellsinger - 140
2x Dispell Scrolls
10xGlade Guard - 126
10xGlade Guard - 126
5xGlade Riders - 129
8x Dryads - 96
8x Dryads - 96
8x Wardancers - 165
7x Wardancers - 147
5x Wild Riders - 168
6xWaywatchers - 144
Great Eagle - 50
Grand Total: 2000
Ok, the basic idea here is that:
Highborne: This goes in the larger of the Wardancers. He then makes his way into a forest and hides unseen by enemy archers. There is likely to be a wood near the enemies archers. As soon as the enemy has gone past these, this unit will appear in said trees using moonstone of hidden ways and burst out to calmly slice and dice their way through the gunline. Alternatively, they can be used to make the unit appear in a wood behind a large enemy block of infantry or heavy cavalry that is threatening me. They will appear and then charge the from the rear. +2 to combat res +overkill which should be enough to make them flee or ensure there are no return attacks. Then there is the possibility that another unit can charge another flank and then the unit will be attacked from all sides and die. With Annoyance of Netlings, the hero is now the armies hero hunter.
Branchwraith: +3 dispell dice, this guy i built for antimagic and will accompany one of dryad units and will sit behind the glade guard and take the charge when theGG flee.
Spellsinger: Anti magic with +1 dispell dice and 2x scrolls. Can move trees closer to enemy archers or behind enemy combat units that are bearing down on my archers.
Noble: This is a trouble shooter. The idea was lovingly stolen from an army in White Dwarf 3 years ago and works wonders. With an 18" charge for getting him places, sat out of sight in a wood and with a 4+ save if you do get hit this fella isn't dying quickly. Sit him in a wood and wait for a combat to go wrong, then ram this guy in with his choice of 5 str 6 g.weapon attacks or 5 str 4 ini 9 attacks. Nasty artillery shredding your troops? Big unit about to hit your glade guard? Thin 'em out with the Hail of Doom Arrow. Rolling an average of 10.5 str 4 shots at BS 6 this thing packs a punch!
Glade Guard: Point and shoot, not hard. Target priority includes those that get too close for comfort and causing panic checks in small units or with concentrated fire. Will flee if charged, the Dryads will then take the charge
Glade Riders: Use these to block charges on your glade guard then flee, giving you an extra round of shooting. This can also be used to charge at an enemy 10 man longer ranged squad that is causing you grief (30" crossbowmen etc.). Can also be used for flank charging people engaged with other units to take the rank bonus away, or going around the back of them so when they flee they are butchered.
Dryads: Guard the flanks of the eternal guard, perhaps go hunting for weaker units that brave your flank. The idea for this unit is to sit behind the glade guard, who when in danger will flee through the dryads (who are immune to psychology) to safety and the Dryads will accept the charge.
Wardancers 1: This unit will be with the Wardancer Lord. They will utilise woods to slice and dice through gunlines or that back of elite/big enemy units. They will use whirling death (killing blow) against very heavily armoured units (2+save or better)/units with 2 wounds, Storm of Blades (+1 attack) against light, medium and heavy infantry (3+ save or worse). Having charged, if fearing heavy retaliatory blows use Coil of Shadow (4+ ward save), otherwise continue as before.
Wardancers 2: This unit will act like a midfield in football, attacking and defending. When defending they will support the dryads by attacking flank charging units engaged by the Dryads. Another defensive role they will take is attacking units that are progressing down flanks, targetting smaller units at elite troops or medium units of infantry. When on the offensive, they will support Wardancers 1 they will charge the other sides of larger units that are engaged by Wardancers 1, using the same pattern for dances.
Wild Riders: Can be used to support Wardancers 1, or butcher a gunline. This unit is basically designed for flank charging units engaged with skirmishers to give them a fighting chance, however if there is little enemy combat units, then it can make its way up a flank opposite to the one occupied by the trees in the enemies half and then charge, butcher, repeat. When done, they can use their 18" march to get to enemy combat units bearing down on the Glade Guard. A rear charge on a unit already engaged would be sweet!
Waywatchers: Use for killing war-machine crews, stopping marching and thining out troops: preferably small units or high cost units for killing blow. Keep within 10 inches of board edges and outskirts of forests if dealing with cavalry or infantry block, otherwise deploy in a forest at back of the table and engage enemy war-machine crews or archers by walking and shooting, then charging.
Great Eagle: This guy will assist the Wild riders in their advance. If he dies, he dies, i lose 50 points, they aren't shooting at the really nasty things. The idea with this is to attack war-machines and archers, kill them quickly, then get back in time to deal with enemy combat troops bearing down on the Glade Guard
Last edited by Orthanus; May 22nd, 2009 at 17:32. Reason: A tweeking of SirKently's list v2- I like his use of Great Eagle
Thankyou very much for replying so quickly, now I want to argue my end, see if I can't defend some of my choices:
I must first appologise for my lack of detailed knowledge of the rules, a year of 40k inquisition has wiped some of the finer details away.
Spellweaver: Interesting how? I took a slowing spell, an insurance against miscasts, and the rest on dispell scrolls. Could this be improved?
Noble 1: I see your point but for 25 points, if the unit turns tail and runs, surely it is better than 2x the sniping power. The later is around 3 or 4 extra shots in the game, the first is a minimum of 25 shots, and on average about 50 shots.
Noble 2: Hmm, Conceeded, I will now give him Light Armour, Shield, and Sword of 1000 winters for long and protracted duels, reducing str, att and ini will be vital for his job in my opinion, + I save 4 points.
Noble 3: Thankyou, I like him too, he is more specialised than my old noble who was a mix of noble 2 and 3 using Bow of Loren.
Glade Guard: Great ideas, -1 standard, 15:10 mix, Springtide banner is very situational but a good idea because if I inflict about 50 points of damage I need only do it every other game.
Glade Riders: Hmmm, I will keep the 6th man because that extra man has saved the unit so many times, but I will drop the standard, that was quite risky in reality.
Dryads: I was worried that the unit would be unwieldly, will cut it down to 8 or 9 depending on points.
Wardancers: This unit is going to crashing into general bodyguard units, who are always either big or good. Surely a large squad is required for this sort of work?
Waywatchers: More waywatchers? Mwahahahhaha, all I needed was justification: Aye Aye Cap'n!!
Edit: General: I just realised that the list only adds up to 1979, haha, I will have to sort that out in the editted list!
Thanks again for the swift reply. I assure you this is good food for thought and the list will be edited!
Last edited by Orthanus; May 20th, 2009 at 14:02.
To take a bit more critical stance than sirkently about the spellweaver -- I don't know what your play group is like, but if people bring any kind of magic defense at all you won't get very far with your spellweaver. With only one caster you're sporting a total of 6 power dice, which can easily be negated by a single scroll caddy (3DD and 2 scrolls). It seems pretty common for armies to be packing 4-6 dispel dice, which will really shut you down. The other problem is that your spellweaver has T3 and no saves of any kind, sitting in a weak and relatively unmaneuverable unit. Active magic defense will have no problem hunting him down and taking him out quickly.
Generally speaking, I feel that offensive wood elf magic is very inefficient. We just don't have the tools to do much with our own magic phase without investing a TON of points, and even then the impact isn't that great. A spellweaver IS good for defensive magic -- the wand of wych elm combined with some other dispel die generation makes for a very potent magic defense.
Now, on to your units -- I'm not a fan of the big glade guard unit, especially with the spellweaver in it. You're offering your opponent close to 800 vps from a unit that has no hope of winning a close combat. This is a major problem for two reasons. First of all, wood elves rely on not offering many VPs in any target, thus allowing us to harass the enemy more effectively. If you spot your enemy 500-800 vp in every game, suddenly you are under a lot of pressure to make things happen in combat, which can force you into battles that are unfavorable. The way that I like to play Wood Elves is by keeping inevitability on my side -- unless my opponent does something, I'm going to eke out a small victory by harassing him to death. So now it's on him to make something happen, which I exploit to my advantage through my superior maneuverability. I also confuse him by not offering obvious targets, thus making his decisions more difficult.
The other major problem of having a unit like that is that one of the main weaknesses of wood elf armies is large, flying monsters. We just simply don't have anything that can handle the likes of a bloodthirster or a star dragon prince. So our best bet is to throw a few cheap units under the bus and not give it any good targets to hit while simultaneously picking apart the rest of his army. We ensure that his choice is cost ineffective because there just aren't enough turns in the game for him to make his points back. With a big, juicy target like you have though (especially one that can't fight back), his big monster can suddenly earn its points back and then some in one fell swoop... and there is little to nothing that you can do to stop him.
I'm also not a big fan of the starfire noble or the former wardancer noble, although the starfire noble could be good against certain armies. Think about it this way -- even against a weak target (T3, 5+ armor save) he only has a bit better than a 1 in 4 shot of actually causing a wound each time he fires. So even against very weak targets he's only going to cause 1-2 panic tests per game, and that's assuming he is able to fire unharassed for a full 6 turns. Against tougher enemies you'll average less than one panic test per game. Also, even on a low leadership of 7, opponents are going to be failing less than half the time. So based on the odds I don't think this is a great choice. Think about it this way -- for that 129 points you could buy yourself a whole unit of 10 glade guard, which will actually cause more panic tests (and more wounds) from their shooting against most targets.
As far as the used-to-be-a-wardancer noble goes, I think him and his unit are at odds when it comes to their purpose. The most threatening enemy combat characters to you are going to be quick, mounted fellows which you will have a bit of trouble getting in combat with given wardancer speed... unless of course he comes to you. Wardancers themselves are excellent at carving up light infantry, but they will struggle a bit against elite infantry or especially when charged by a unit of good heavy cavalry. Even if you get your noble in a challenge, the rest of your unit may well lose combat by a country mile, forcing a break test that you aren't likely to pass. I also don't like the sword of a thousand winters for two reasons. Against enemy combat characters, you are going to struggle to wound at all. With only 3 attacks at S4, your chance to wound is going to be very low especially against mounted characters with 1+ or 2+ saves. Even if you do manage to wound, the benefit from the sword isn't that big, especially considering most enemy characters are only going to have 2-3 wounds. So again, this seems like an idea that sounds neat but probably won't work very often. I think if you want to go this route you're better off doing something like a branchwraith with annoyance and murder of spites in a unit of dryads, which are a bit tougher. Even then, I don't see it working that well at this point level.
Beyond that, I tend to agree with sirkently on most points.
Basically, I fear that your list is full of neat tricks that work well at low point values but won't translate to effectiveness at the 2k+ level.
Firstly to Sir Kently: Thankyou for another follow-up reply and a very non-confrontational manner. Your patience about explaining war dancers is good (you can tell which units I didn't have in my 1000pts can't you.) However after upheaval in the ranks, we have a new-look list thanks to Swarm of Seals. Feel free to point out mistakes in that list also.
To mr Swarms of Seals:
A good kicking you gave my list. I would have liked to defend it, saying things like "if the enemy gets 4-6 dispell dice and i get 6 power dice + 2 bound spells i fail to see the magical problem". However I resisted, though mainly due to the chance to write a new list.
I got rid of the sniper lord because I couldn't make him work.
I replaced the anti hero noble with a combat spellsinger. I know that sounds insane, but listen: spell weaver casts "anger of the bear", this crazy wizard gets statline boost to WS4 S5 T4 W2 I5 A4. Couple this with the 4+ armour save, 5+ ward save against non-magical attacks and only hittable on 6's this character can at least hold up enemy Lords and Heros, if not kill weaker ones in challenges. The idea is to then put this in the Treekin and cause havoc in bodyguard units. Treekin are the toughest thing we have, and the 'fear' rule means charging them can be as much a nuiscence as being charged by them. This character will act as a battery for the Spellweaver, or as a dispell-dice-eater unless I get a spell which is useful in the situation (ariel's blessing just before combat or Call of the hunt for a speedy combat engagement.)
I cut the wardancers in favour of the treekin because as Sirkently pointed out, the wardancers are not good at heavy infantry/cavalry battles. Treekin on the other hand I think should be able to handle cavalry. The average squad is going to be 9 man + hero with WS4 S4 T3 A1 I4 Sv 2+. Assuming I charge, I get 10 attacks first, 5 hit, 4 wound, 2 die. They attack back: 4 attacks, 2 hit none wound, same with horse attacks.
My magic should now be dominant, 8 power dice and a boundspell. My main competitors are going to be ogre kingdoms, bretonians, but my rival (best mate) is Chaos (nurgle) or empire. Ofcourse I will be taking this army to other events if it performs well, but this is mainly a grudge-match sparked by comments over a 40k game to the line of "Ok you beat me, but I would mop the floor with your fantasy army" and the grudge match sparked from there.
Thankyou again for your suggestions, please keep them coming. My first priority is winning, but closely followed by not spending too much (I'm already a bit annoyed at having to buy 3x treemen, thank god for sites where you can get models at 25% off!
A spellweaver with the wand of wych elm really cries out for a branchwraith with the cluster of radients. I would get one quick. And I would replace the treekin with wild riders, or wardancers. As this is more of a mobile list, having one static movement unit isn't going to be a great help.
And I really didn't mind your initial list. I am not going to say it was uber powerful, but I think it would have been fun to play. But if winning the grudge match is important to you, then yeah you need a better list.
Another thing is that wood elves don't have magic dominant list. 8 power dice isn't dominant, 15+ is. We go more for defense, to protect our other troops. That is why most lists with a spellweaver will keep her at level 3, have a level 1 scroll caddy, and a branchwraith with the cluster of radients. That leaves enough points to take at least a decent amount of combat and shooting troops.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
I sincerely apologize if I came off as harsh -- it certainly wasn't my intention. Anyway, I'm glad you are finding the feedback helpful!
As usual I agree with sirkently's latest round of comments and want to emphasize a few things:
1. Sirkently is correct in that you can only cast bear's anger once per turn, and more likely than not your opponent will try to dispel it. If he dispels it you can't attempt it again. Also, as far as your combat spellweaver goes -- very creative idea, but not a legal target for bear's anger because it's mounted.
2. I actually like treekin more than most and you are correct that they can make a mess of cavalry when you charge them. The problem is that is rather difficult given that treekin are slow and cavalry are fast! If you bait your opponent into a trap it might happen, but more often than not the treekin themselves are on the receiving end of the charge... and when that happens, the numbers don't look so good.
3. Yeah 8 PD isn't dominant for magic, not in seriously competitive lists. At the 2k level it's quite common to see 10+ PD ... even over 20 on occasion with a few armies.
4. If you really want to field the most competitive list possible, I suggest posting a list of what models you have and what your budget looks like -- sirkently and I will then cook you up some wicked options =)
I dont think you're being harsh to me, you're being harsh to the list, which is good, I want it to be good. Now I remember that rule I remember how bloody stupid the list is, I will have it rectified within the hour. Bloody 40k rules making me forget everything.
Ok here is what I got at the moment:
Noble- shield, spear, horse
Noble- spear, sword
Spellsinger- female casting
12x dryads- 1 champion
12x glade guard- 1 musician, 1 standard, 1 champion
12x glade guard- 1 musician 2 champions (Explained later)
7x glade riders- 1 musician, 1 champion
My current plan is to:
use the dryad champion as branch wraith (spruce it up a bit with base scenery and take loads of time painting it)
use the 3 GG champions (all of whom have cooler cloaks) as Waywatchers.
This gives me:
Noble- shield, spear, horse
Noble- spear, sword
Spellsinger- female casting
12x dryads- 1 champion
11x glade guard- 1 musician, 1 standard
10x glade guard- 1 musician
7x glade riders- 1 musician, 1 champion
Last edited by Orthanus; May 21st, 2009 at 13:15.