Welcome to Librarium Online!
Heres my list.
Wood Elf Higborn
Great Weapon, Light Armor, Shield
An Annoyance of Netlings, The Helm of the Hunt, Amaranthine Brooch
Dispel Scroll x2
Level 1 Wizzard, Custer of Radiants
Glade Guard x 10 =120
Glade Guard x 10 = 120
Glade Guard x 10 =120
Glade Riders x 5 + mus =129
Dryads x 8 =96
Dryads x 8 =96
Dryads x 8 =96
Wardancer x 6 + =108
Wild Riders x 6 + Full Command + Warbanner = 217
Treekin x 4 =260
Treeman = 285
Great Eagle = 50
Mediocre magic defense, but all i need it to do is save me in turn 1 and 2. After that the enemy casters may be dead, even if they arent my units are all in combat. I use the highborn get into my deployed forest (middle ish of the map on my side) on turn one, and turn two i charge A.) a Unit with a caster and challenge, B.) A lone caster, C.) A unit of something that wont win combat res and force my highborn to flee (chariots, Cavalry, Ect.) With a 5+ Armor Save and a 3+ Ward save hes extremely Sturdy. On the Charge he gets 6 Attacks with +1 WS and Great Weapons and in a challenge can only be hit on 6s
This is my first attempt at a competetive woodelf army and so far its worked well, but let me know what you guys think i could improve.
The only thing i sort of miss is Warhawk riders, but they allways seemed to get shot down too easily and cost alot of points.
Your magic defense is average for a wood elf list. Your list seems fine. The one change I would make is to drop the champ upgrade for the wild riders and get one more wardancer.
P.S. At the top of the page, there is a subforum for army lists. I sure a mod can move it there when they notice it.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
I generally agree with Sirkently, although I think there are a few minor improvements that you could make to make it more competitive.
I'd drop the branchwraith for another scroll caddy, as 1 DD and 2 scrolls is probably more valuable than 2DD, especially given that you are mainly concerned with shutting down magic for the first turn or two.
I agree re: dropping the WR champ in favor of another wardancer.
The main problem I see with the alter lord is that there aren't many situations where a challenge will actually result in him fighting a mage -- really only in single rank units with no champion. If your opponent is smart, he'll accept the challenge with the unit champion or, better yet, just retire the mage to the back rank and then win the combat through static combat res. Given that you have a free hero slot, I'd probably prefer to see two alter nobles instead of an alter highborn -- one using the standard alter configuration and the other using either the amber alter or the amaranthine alter configuration (noble, alter, GW, shield, briarsheath, amber pendant/amaranthine brooch). The two of those together will cost 314 points, only 42 more than your highborn. When the two charge together, you're looking at 9 S6 attacks =) Plus you get the power of the HoDA. Of course, you'll have to shave some points somewhere to fit this...
The last thing that I'd suggest swapping out are the treekin. Honestly, I'll admit that I just don't like them. They don't hit hard enough to break good SCR and they lose against any respectable cavalry charge, especially nasty cavalry like chaos knights. Combine that with the fact that only 25 more points gets you a treeman and I have a hard time justifying the 'kin.
So that basically leaves two obvious directions to take this list:
A. Drop the treekin (saving 280 points), switch to the two alter noble configuration (costs 42 points), leaving you with 238 points to do as you please with. You have two special slots open, so you could get more wild riders or more wardancers, plus another unit of dryads. If you go with Wild Riders, I'd suggest not adding the extra wardancer when you drop the champion from the first wild rider unit, thus giving you enough points for the second wild rider unit to be 6 strong. If you go for wardancers, you can afford another seven man unit with a musician. Of course, a third option would be to drop a shield from one of the nobles to save 2 points and get something like a unit of 3 warhawk riders and another unit of 10 glade guard. Really, 238 points gives you a lot of options!
B. Drop the treekin and the great eagle in favor of a second treeman. This leaves you up by 25 points. You could drop the wild rider champion and use those points to afford the switch to the 2 alter configuration, but with 2 treemen you really want a bsb... so in that case I'd go with just the standard alter and some sort of BSB (probably with oaken armor or some such), which saves you enough points to get a champion for your wardancer unit. The BSB then joins the wardancers.
I think either of these options would be a bit more competitive, although like sirkently said your list is already quite good!
I definently agree with you about having two scroll caddys instead of the BW. I dont know why i didnt think of it before. I guess it just became so standard to take a spellsinger and BW with cluster that i didnt even consider any other options.
I will drop the champ for sure and include another wardancer for sure.
About Treekin... I never liked them either until i put them into this list. And to be honest they suprised the hell out of me. I use them on a flank, usually inside of my Wild Riders. They provide either protection for my wild riders if needed, or a flank charge that negates rank bonus, provides 12 attacks, has 12 wounds, and doesnt take a rare spot.
The one problem i have with them is that because they are rank and file, they have to wheel... which makes them seem slow and sluggish in my army. I really dont know if id rather have a treeman either though, as i do like having a great eagle. Great eages are great for march blocking and getting easy rear charges for +2 CR where needed. They do get shot down alot, but its only 50 points gone if they do.
I think ill try both ways and see... or maybe drop the treekin and get wildriders or another wardancer unit.
I dont know about 2 nobles instead of a Highborn. I did some math and figures that HoDA against T3 will do about 6 wounds and against T4 will doa bout 5... Considering its 35 points, and takes up the nobles magic item points, im not sure if i like it.
I allways feel like after HoDA is shot, the nobles use is limited. The highborn on the other hand can stand up to most other heroes/champs and can destroy things like cavalry, chariots, wizzards with cavalry units, and anything else that doesnt have tons of SCR.
Either way, Thank you guys for your help and suggestions!
Anyone else have an opinion on 2 nobles vs 1 highborn....
And what about treekin. Does anyone else think they are worthwhile?
The HoDA is just a very efficient item -- you pay 35 points and will likely kill 70-100 points of models with it, give or take.
As far as treekin goes, I agree that they can be good, particularly if you get them in the flank of an enemy unit. That said, they'll probably only get 2-3 models in base to base against the flank and have a much harder time getting there due to having to wheel. So if we're comparing to a treeman it's like 6-9 attacks at S5 vs 5 attacks at S6, pretty close to even depending on the type of enemy. Eagles are nice, I'll agree there, but the treeman also gives you another strangle root and bound treesing. If treekin work for you though, go for it! They are definitely better against some armies than others.
As far as the two nobles vs. 1 highborn thing, the difference between the standard alter noble and your highborn in terms of offensive power is basically 1 point of weapon skill and 1 attack. He's more vulnerable to shooting for sure, but if you are careful with positioning this won't be a huge problem. Compare the two options on the charge: the highborn gets 6 S6 attacks at WS8, the two nobles get 5 S6 attacks at WS7 and 4 S6 attacks at WS6. Say you charge a unit of nurgle chaos knights -- worst case scenario for the 2 alter combination as the lower WS will actually matter -- the highborn will average 1.67 wounds while the two nobles kill 2.21. In situations where the WS doesn't matter, the two nobles will win by a larger margin.
So basically, the two nobles when working together are just as good, if not better, can openers than the single highborn -- perfect for hitting the flanks of a unit, particularly cavalry. They are also both quite capable of taking out enemy mages on a charge, although with the same restrictions that I articulated earlier regarding the problems with attacking ranked units and/or units with champions in them.
Where the highborn fares better is in challenges vs. killy characters due to the annoyance of netlings, although I'd argue that even here the highborn isn't very good due to the likelihood of the enemy having a magic weapon that will negate the amaranthine brooch. Honestly, I'd much rather just try to avoid killy characters if possible, and tie them up with throwaway units if not!
IMO, the reason to take a highborn is to get something that the rest of the army can't do -- either kill heavy cavalry at range (machine gun highborn), provide leadership 10 (non-alter highborn), provide a tough defensive character to challenge enemy characters and chase them off via combat res (wild rider highborn), or ride a big monster (dragon highborn). In other situations, I like to use several cheaper units when possible rather than one expensive one.
Thank you... very good points.
I definently am going to go with 2 nobles. What items should i set them up with?
One other thing on Treekin vs Treeman. Treekin in a group of 4, count as 12 unit strength and cause fear, making it very likley for the enemy to auto break. Quite a bit different as far as Unit Strength goes. Also, with the treekin i can get a great eagle, which can get easy rear charges for +2 CR.
Still you might be right, Treeman probably is better.
But wouldnt 2 Treemen make the army a bit cheesy?
Just want to correct something you said a couple of times. Attacking with a great eagle in the rear doesn't give you the +2 to combat resolution. When attacking either the flank or rear, you need a unit strength of 5 to get the bonus. Great eagles are only unit strength 3.
I agree with swarm about the highborn setup. Unless you have a setup with a particular role in mind, such as the machine gun alter, you are better off going with a couple nobles.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
The two nobles I would use are the "Standard Alter" and either the "Amber Alter" or the "Amaranthine Alter":
Standard Alter = Noble w/ Alter Kindred, Great Weapon, Light Armor, Shield, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow -- Fire the HoDA and then get stuck in with 5 S6 WS7 attacks on the charge. He's vulnerable to magic and mundane missiles though, so you want to be very careful about how you position him and use terrain to your advantage.
Amber Alter = Noble w/ Alter Kindred, Great Weapon, Shield, Briarsheath, Amber Pendant -- This guy is very strong in close combat and has the advantage of being able to hold up over multiple rounds because the amber pendant means he always, always strikes first. This makes him exceptional against enemies that rely on always strike first rules -- he's amazing against High Elves in particular. That said, if the enemy does get to attack him he lacks much in the way of defense! He's more protected against mundane shooting thanks to the Briarsheath, but he's still just as vulnerable to magic missiles.
Amaranthine Alter = Noble w/ Alter Kindred, Great Weapon, Shield, Briarsheath, Amaranthine Brooch -- Very similar to the Amber Alter. He's got the disadvantage of striking last after the first round of combat and striking last against ASF opponents, but he has a much stronger defense that will help him weather those attacks. He's even more protected against mundane shooting. If he's in cover, even at close range against BS4 S4 armor penetrating shots it'll take about 110 shots on average to kill him! That said, he's just as vulnerable against magic missiles and very vulnerable against magical close combat attacks. I wouldn't recommend him against Daemons or, to a lesser extent, Vampire Counts (if they take lots of grave guard, black knights, cairn wraiths and the like).
And yeah, I see your points re: Treekin. I just prefer Wild Riders and Dryads as my fear causing unit-strength providing option =)
As far as cheese goes, a 2 Treeman + BSB army is about as "cheesy" as it gets for Wood Elves, but honestly it's nothing compared to what many other armies can field. Lizardmen, Vampires, DE, and Daemons can all easily muster far more cheese than this. High Elves, Empire, Dwarves, and possibly others as well are all also capable of significantly more cheesy lists. If you are terrified of being called cheesy, then don't run two treemen and a BSB, but you did say you were trying to be competitive -- so if you expect to face lists that you feel fall in the cheese range, don't be shy about cheesing it up a bit yourself.
Hmm. Thank you Sirkently. I was under the impression it counted as combat res, but it didnt negate rank bonus if you flanked a enemy with unit strength less than 5. Thanks for clearing that up.
I guess that limits the use of the eagle then...
I will miss Anoyance of Nettlings, but i think i am going to make a switch to Noble x 2
Will add another scroll caddy instead of the Branchwraith
Probably will get rid of the Treekin and Great Eagle and add some combination of more wardancers, warhawk riders, and possibly a treeman, depending on points.
Thanks again for the help.