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It seems the more I play and share experiences with other WE players, the more we return to the conclussion our best chance against a lot of things these days is good magic defense, Treesinging, and baiting things into forests. Quite simply we can't cause enough casualties via shooting or hope to match the nasty combat units out there one on one.
While our competitive advantages of speed, mobility, skirmishing, and move and shoot are still there, augmenting or relying on Treesinging and baiting/fleeing into forests is our best chance. That way we take advantage of all our advantages in forests being able to move forests, move freely in them contrasted with our opponent's significant penalty in them, and possible damage portion of spell.
With that in mind, I'm going to go with Treeman Ancient since he's contributes both to magic defense and 2 bound Treesingings. Plus he's not too shabby in combat. I'll then go with 2 Lvl 2 mages to give me a chance to get off Treesinging. I like the Calingor's and 3 Scrolls combination with them because that gives me good offense and decent defense with 5 DD and 3 Scrolls (bare min. protection).
I'm also going to take Glade Riders and Eagle since they are our best fleeing/baiting units and try to get the opponent to chase them into said forests.
Since I'm taking a TA, my list is going to be pretty combat oriented. I was debating between BSB or Alter noble, but I think the BSB offers more benefits across the board. He protects your significant investment in TA and also enhances the ability of all the other combat units to hold. I think that's more important then 5 S6 attacks, which I can sort of get from other sources .
Here's my list:
Treeman Ancient - Cluster and Annoyance - 375
BSB - Asyendi's and HoDA - 130
Lvl 2 Spellsinger - Calingor's and Scroll - 175
Lvl 2 Spellsinger - 2 Scrolls - 175
10 GG - 120
10 GG - 120
8 Dryads - 96
8 Dryads - 96
5 Glade Riders + Musician - 129
6 WD + 1 WD Champion (7 total) - 140
6 WR + Standard + Warbanner - 199
3 Treekin - 195
Eagle - 50
I still kept the BSB with shooting kit since I like HoDA and 20 GG to be able to remove support troops like flyers and fast cav. I took the WD champion to protect my BSB in a challenge and will try to keep the BSB on the very edge. Treekin are there to pack a punch that I'm missing without Alter Noble, be able to survive shooting/magic missles, and should hopefully be able to hold with help of BSB. Wild Riders and Glade Riders can remove rank bonus. My list I don't think is very strong against Dwarves/Empire shooting builds. But Treesinging and terrain could still give me a chance. Do you think this type of list stands a good chance? I completely realize I'm at the mercy of having one additional forest on the board other then my free one.
All of our lists have a chance. With a BSB I prefer to have two stubborn units to take advantage of it. I would try to get a second treeman in the list. Although for true anti magic I would go with the spellweaver with the wand.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
First of all, I agree! I'm very reticent to take a list without a base of treesinging! But, I really think you need the deepwood sphere on your second caddy. This thing is NASTY if something wanders into the woods, and it means that if only get off it, and maybe one other spell, you still moved the trees significant distance.
I like the TMA better than the Spell Weaver because he's more efficient and has far more uses. So good general choice!
But...I still don't like treekin.... I think that another treeman will benefit you far more.
Treekin do have alot of high strength attacks! But they are not mobile and easily out manuevered. When it comes down to it, a treeman's strangle root will average the same number of hits at a lower strength, without commital to combat.
Additionally, neither of them (treeman or treekin) are likely to win combat on their own. TM have the advantage of stubborn in that regard; and being monsters are more manueverable and far more likely to get on a flank, which can swing the combat in their favor, and add to an existing combat.
Also, if a TM is going to have to engage solo, you can strangleroot from a position where they HAVE to charge you. Then on their turn when they do charge you, you can strangleroot as a stand and shoot reaction. This way you get 2D10's of S4 hits before combat even starts! Greatly increasing your chances of actually winning. (I've done massive damage to units by doing this.)
if you HAD charged them, you still would have been hitting last during combat on their turn anyway. Of course, this is less viable against high toughness troups, but that's why you have the woods. And treekin suffer from the exact same problem. (i.e., lost efficiency against high toughness - tho, admittedly they don't lose efficiency as fast)
You can also run "hide and seek" tactics easier with treemen. One treeman's base takes up less room than three treekin, and so can hide easier. And being a monster, he can jump from cover to cover. This is how I run Drycha.
That said, the only time I run treekin these days is with the Drycha in my "Hide-and-seek" Drycha list. Her teleportation vastly compensates for their slow speed. And the formation with her in it is terrifying!
If you drop the treekin, and the eagle you only need 40 more points for the other treeman. I'd get this by dropping command from your wild riders. In some instances I find the combat res useful, in others I find it to be a liability; in a list like this, I'd feel safer with a second treeman.
Tho, I'd that does take you down to only one bait/block unit. One option is to drop a glade guard to take a warhawk. In fact, unless you feel the hit and run is worth it, I'd prioritize warhawks over glade riders due to versatility.
Of course, ANOTHER option is to swap the Treekin for something else, like a warhawk, or another WD or WR unit.
If you don't take the TM, i think swapping the BSB for something like an alter, or better, making your WD's teleport would be a good idea!
Teleportation has GREAT synergy with treesinging lists!
Last edited by Gnomish.Id; September 15th, 2009 at 18:12.
Also something else that would help greatly against the magic defense is Ariel's banner for your BSB. It is expensive, but in the few battles i have played with it i have had a great return on it. I agree that a second treeman would be the way to go and that the treekin although a tough unit can not match the versatility (that was so greatly pointed out by Gnomish) of the treeman.
just some input and reassurance